E12 - It Takes a Village

Speakers: Catherine Ross, Lynda-Louise Burrell & Kenrick ‘H20’ Sandy

[Music Playing]

Riaz: My mother's Dutch pot.

Jocelyn: A poster which is a map of Barbados.

Female: My grandmother’s suitcase.

Lenny: A flyer with a sound system on it.

Catherine: We all have one of those objects, don't we?

Lynda: Something so sentimental, we've had it for years.

Catherine: And losing or breaking it is not an option.

Lynda: These objects tell a story about us.

Catherine: About our lives, upbringing, and family.

Lynda: And for Caribbeans whose stories are so often left untold, we are bringing these stories to the fore.

Riaz: They're just pots on a surface level, but they're kind of loaded in history.

Lenny: These flyers would've been going back to the seventies, so it brings back great memories.

Catherine: This is Objeks & Tings.

Lynda: A podcast celebrating Caribbeans and their favourite tings.

Catherine: Episode 12: It takes a village.

Lynda: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Objeks & Tings. And actually, our last this series.

Catherine: Oh, yes. I can't believe we're on episode 12 already. So, for those who've only just found us, welcome to the podcast that celebrates Caribbean life in the UK through objeks and tings.

Lynda: And how do we do that, you ask? Well, each week, we invite a different guest to speak about an object or ting close to their hearts.

Catherine: As this is our last episode, let's have a recap of what all the objects and tings have been.

The Dutch pot.

Lynda: The grip.

Catherine: The iron comb.

Lynda: The photograph.

Catherine: The flyer about a sound system.

Lynda: The poster of a map.

Catherine: The Windrush outfit.

Lynda: Pardner hand.

Catherine: The magazine.

Lynda: The album.

Catherine: The hip hop album.

Lynda: Yeah, that was a good one.

Catherine: And the receipt of the Windrush ticket.

Lynda: Oh, I love that.

Catherine: History, a lot of variety, objeks and tings.

Lynda: And then of course, we have today's objek or ting. But before we find out what that is, let's first find out who our guest is.

Kenrick: My name is Kenrick ‘H20’ Sandy. I am one of the co-artistic directors of hip hop dance company called Boy Blue. We're an Olivier award-winning company. We've been around since 2001. I'm also a choreographer, a teacher, and a performer.

Lynda: My niece, your granddaughter, is one of the many young people who goes to Kenrick’s dance classes. People travel from far and wide to get lessons from him because he's the best.

Catherine: I'm not surprised they travel to get the best. Because, let's face it, we Caribbeans love dancing.

Lynda: But where in the Caribbean is he from?

Kenrick: And I am a British born East London man with Grenadian heritage.

Lynda: That's cleared that up. But what is his object?

Catherine: Well, it's actually more a ting and something that sums up his work perfectly. But I'll let Kenrick explain.

Kenrick: The object that I would like to talk about is, I would say it's more of a ting. It's more of a building, it's a youth centre. That's what I want to talk about today.

A youth centre is a space for recreation. It's an afterschool club. It's a place you could play basketball and various different sports. It's an opportunity to do creative arts. It's a social space.

It's a space, if you want to have a chat with friends after school, it's a unified space. It's a space that is a neutral ground.

A lot of times when one person comes from one school, one person comes from another school, you can't bring your nonsense to the youth centre. The youth centre is a haven.

It's a space that you should be able to flourish. It's a space where, for me, constantly meeting new people who have grown to be friends, who've grown to be good friends. And that's still unconditional in my life.

It also gives you an opportunity if you need tutoring with regards to some of your subjects as well. There's opportunity to get that extra support. So, the youth centre is literally for the youth, and it's enabling them to push and progress.

There's been many times where some of them do adult education as well. Some youth centres also help with regards to feeding kids, some family units that may not be as well off. So, there's an opportunity to support the young people after school with hot dinners, and just that social impact.

So, my encounter with the youth centre has changed over the years. I started off in my late teens going there playing basketball. I didn't have the opportunity to go upstairs and see the dance. I got into it, I thought, “Oh, they're doing a bit of break dance and a bit of gymnastics, let me have a try.”

Which then gave me an opportunity to do my first ever performance. And that completely changed my life. It completely changed the way I saw things. It allowed me to mix all my different creative skills and put it into one basket, which was dance.

Now, as an older youth centre participant, I'm now able to be a volunteer at the youth centre anytime that they need extra people to be there. I do dance rehearsals at the youth centre. I play football, I do basketball there as well.

But the major thing that I really enjoy throughout the years of going to the youth centre, to me, is the social part of it. We've done a couple games nights, we've done FIFA tournaments, just the vibes and just chill and just have a conversation.

Seeing just the joy that the youth centre brings to young people just shows the need of a youth centre.

Catherine: Youth clubs, what a noble choice and so in line with who Kenrick is and what he does. I love this theme.

Lynda: Yes, he also wanted to talk about rum, another noble choice if you ask me, but he settled on youth clubs.

Catherine: Both great choices in very different ways.

Lynda: Youth clubs are a huge fixture in British Caribbean communities. But like many things associated with the arts, a lot of them are suffering from funding cuts and are being closed down.

Catherine: Yes, it's a huge shame. There's so much value in organisations that enable young people to flourish in a safe, supportive environment. Here's hope in our conversation with Kenrick can help spread the good word.

Lynda: Hello, Kenrick.

Catherine: Hi?

Kenrick: Good evening. Good evening.

Catherine: Before we start, I have to say, you are so modest. At the top of the show, you introduced yourself, but there are so many other strings to your bow. Like working with Danny Boyle on the opening ceremony of the 2012 Olympics. What was that like?

Kenrick: That was definitely a really, really good experience. Being a man from East London, good old East London, and being able to choreograph an event that happened in East London was a true honour. I felt very privileged to do that.

Working with Danny, I can actually say he is my friend. We have conversations and we're still working together now. So, it's a beautiful experience.

The amount of volunteers that we worked with, the team that I had from a Boy Blue point of view, mass movement, who were also there, they're the ones who helped to manifest the vision with the charting of the volunteers where they needed to be.

And yeah, just a general vibe was good. It was a lot of work, don't get it twisted. It was stress because obviously, there's so many components. But it was truly a great experience for me.

Lynda: I loved it. I loved watching that. It was amazing.

Kenrick: Thank you.

Lynda: And you've also worked with lots of other celebrities too, haven't you? Who else have you worked with?

Kenrick: Wow, okay. I forget my CV. I've worked with the Saturday,  I've worked with Mystique. I've worked with Sugarbabes, George Michael, Beverly Knight, Oxide & Neutrino, Fergie of Black Eyed Peas, I've danced for her. Who else have I danced for?

Catherine: It's okay. You don't have to carry on, my jaws dropped already.

Lynda: Very impressive.

Catherine: Seriously so.

Lynda: I think one of the most intriguing, inspirational things that I've heard about you is that you work on the GCSE dance syllabus.

Kenrick: Yes, indeed. So, we've had a piece called Emancipation of Expressionism or short for EOE that's been in the GCSE AQA dance for about, I think it feels like it's been five to seven years now. It's the first we would say the hip hop street dance piece that's been in the GCSE dance.

We've had really good response. We've got a resource pack out as well. But yeah, for me, education is very important, especially the involvement of creativity. Sometimes with a lot of schools, they become very academic. They're just focusing on the academic side.

But for me, when it comes to creativity, your maths is involved, your English is involved, you know what I mean? Your science is involved, and it's how do you use that in order to create people to be more creative and academic at the same time?

So, the way that we teach, the way that we notate our stuff is very academic, but it's very creative. And we are also looking at how we help those with learning difficulties to understand our notation, and to help them to decipher the language of what we say. Do you know what I mean?

It's like going from French to English; how do you understand it when you're so used to someone standing in front of you and teaching you a routine? There's so many other ways of learning. And that's what us as a company, Boy Blue with education, that's what we look for.

We look to reach out to understand how we can support understanding, overstanding, and how to help people to study oneself and push the legacy.

Catherine: Can you tell me why is it called Boy Blue?

Kenrick: Oh gosh.

Lynda: One day I was feeling blue.

Kenrick: Do you know what? The most simplest way of saying it, is that basically I'm a boy and I like blue. That is it. Because at the time you had different street dance crews and hip-hop crews with these like kapow well names, you know what I mean? Next level, Blaze, Inferno.

And I was just like, “Okay, cool, Boy Blue. I'm a boy and I like blue and let the dance do the talking.” You see what I mean? Alright.

So, if you have this big name and you don't deliver with that same kind of energy, it's slightly a problem for you.

So, we thought, you know what, let's just keep it simple. Everyone's like, “What's this Boy Blue? What's all of that?” We say, “You know, let the dance do the talking.” And then you say the name again, isn’t it/ Say no more.

Lynda: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Catherine: But you know when you're a likkle boy in short pants, eh?

Kenrick: Yes.

Catherine: Did you ever think you were going to end up where you are now?

Kenrick: No, no. Likkle boy in short pants. I’m finished. I haven't had that terminology in such a long time. Thank you. I appreciate that.

Catherine: Thank you.

Kenrick: When I was younger, I was into sports, I was into acting, I was into arts, just art and design. That's what I was more into. So, when I was in sixth form, my aim was to actually a graphics designer.

So, I took on art, I did graphics, but then I got bored of graphics. I did drama instead because of the acting. And I did business studies, which I didn't do too well in because I got bored of it.

But I then started to dance in my second year of sixth form. And it was me going to the youth centre to play basketball. Because I was at the time, semi-professional footballer, and I was playing basketball as well.

And they were doing dance upstairs. So, I told my brother, my best friend, Mikey, my brother Roy, “Go upstairs because they've got dance.” Because they were doing more performing arts.

So, I went upstairs, and I started doing some of the stuff and Cat B, who was the teacher at the time, he was like, “I could see a lot of potential. We have a show coming up at Hackney Empire, would you like to do it? And do a little bit of freestyle?” And I said, “Okay, yeah. I'll have a try.”

He goes, “But you have to learn the finale routine from Sabrina, AKA LMS. And she's 11-years-old.” So, she's 11-years-old, and I was 18 at the time. So, the first teacher, yes, my first teacher was an 11-year-old.

So, for me, whenever I think about learning, I believe you can learn from anyone, because my first routine was someone younger than me.

I then went on to doing the Hackney Empire Show, which completely changed everything for me. I think my confidence, my esteem, my motivation, I want to learn more, just boosted up. So, I completely changed my course.

I finished my A levels; I was supposed to go to East Ham College and do art and design. I went to Barking College instead and did performing arts one-year, HNC. And I just went into dancing, I completely changed everything.

However, I have also made sure that I've kept my art, my acting, my athleticism, all of that involved in the dance. So, whenever I'm teaching, my artistic view is how I notate stuff, how I stage stuff. The acting side is the theatrical, the concept, the energy.

And then the athlete side is when we're training, we train like athletes, we train in order to make sure we can uphold the stage, we can uphold the quality. So, that's why when people come to Boy Blue, it's like, “Oh okay, you guys are pushing your students.”

It's like, “Yes, because this is not just about 5, 6, 7, 8, this is about dance. It's about life. If there's life changing opportunity that I had, then there's life opportunities for other people.” So, we just keep that legacy going.

Catherine: So, you've worked with all these incredible people, and you've also got an MBE. What was it like getting the honour?

Lynda: And what was the palace like?

Kenrick: Receiving the MBE, if I'm honest, was challenging. It was challenging for me because of what it stood for, which was the British Empire.

So, as a black British man, for me, I was like, “Okay, what is the reason to take this honour?” When I got the piece of paper, it was said, “This honour is for dance and the community.”

So, I had to take a moment and think about what will this honour do for the dance community and for the community itself. So, even with the friction that I had within myself, I said, “I'm going to take this for the changes that can be made in the dance community and for the community.”

So, when I told my mum about it, she was like, “Yes.” I said, “Mom, you're going to come with me.” She goes, “Yes.” I said, “We're going to go to the palace.” She was like, “Yes.” And then I brought my wife, and I brought my best friend as well.

And it was a beautiful experience because my mom was smiling, and that to me, showed that she was very proud. She could see the work that has been put in. And funny enough, I was there the same time that Victoria Beckham was getting her-

Lynda: Ooh, that's cool.

Kenrick: She might have been getting her upgrade of her honour, but I know she was there. It was very surreal being in there. It didn't feel like it was for me, but I was there.

Lynda: We're very proud of you. So, thank you for-

Kenrick: Yeah, yeah, it was interesting. Like I said, it was a struggle. But now that I've taken it, I am holding it with chest. I am walking into places with the use of this for them to understand the accolade because it's a powerful accolade in this country, and it's about making those changes and get those opportunities to speak to the right people that can create those changes.

Even I've had it for quite some time. I'm still in the process of fully understanding how this honour can serve. So, that's where I'm at. Right now, I'm in a space of understanding the servitude of this honour.

Lynda: I totally get that. And I think I feel probably the same way.

Catherine: I love that phrase. We are glad you got it and we love your reasoning about it. It will help so many other people to understand what it's all about. So, thank you.

Kenrick: Thank you.

Lynda: Let's talk about your ting today. Youth centres or youth clubs, every area used to have one. Unfortunately, today a lot of them are closing down due to lack of funding. Why do you think youth centres are so important?

Kenrick: I just think from a general community point of view and an upbringing point of view, it takes a community to bring up a child. And the youth centre is one of those spaces that enables that.

It gives parents who are working late an opportunity for the child to be somewhere safe, for them to be doing recreation. At the same time, they have afterschool clubs as well. So, you can get that support from an education point of view. I feel it brings that social confidence; you know what I mean?

When sometimes I'm seeing quite a few young people like awkward to have conversations and awkward to talk, they're very introvert, youth centres enable that openness, that conversation, that open forum. For me, it's enabled a lot of confidence in myself.

So, I feel like it can give others that same kind of energy, and you learn a lot from these things. I do now volunteer work in my youth centre, and I'm seeing a lot of young people taking roles, like they're being delegated to sort this out or do this out.

Which for them, I just feel like there's just so much more that the youth centre brings, and I can only go from my experience, but what I see right now and how it just helps progression and elevation and social impact, they're so needed.

Lynda: So, the youth club you used to go to, was it very multicultural?

Kenrick: Yes, it was. It was multicultural and that was the thing for me that's very important, is that anyone and everyone can go there. Okay, it's for this, it's for that. It's like oh, this person, that person. It was very much multicultural.

I used to go Saturday school as well to another youth centre that was predominantly African and Caribbean. It was called the African and Caribbean Centre on the Barking Road.

But when I went to Forest Gate Youth Centre, which is the main one I used to go to, multicultural. Everyone used to come there. Everyone used to vibe. If you know Forest Gate, Forest Gate is very multicultural. And yeah, the young people that go there now, again, still multicultural.

Lynda: I totally get that.

Catherine: Do any of your family members go to a youth club or youth centre?

Kenrick: Not anymore. Because everyone's just older now. But what I've organised sometimes is football on a Wednesday, which is open to everyone. My sons come and play football and sometimes, my friends, some of my dancer friends, they come as well and play football.

Something outside of the dance that we can just say, “You know what, let's all get together and let's have a jam.” And sometimes, I even organise basketball there as well. I've also done a games night there as well. Do you know what I mean?

So, anything that can bring that kind of energy, bring the old days back, I'm on it. Sometimes, I'll even take what I do in the youth centre and bring it to a park. Sometimes in the summer holidays, we will do a fun day.

We'll do rounders, we'll do other games. We'll play cards, blackjack, rummy, everything. Even bring dominoes.

For me, all of those things that I got from my heritage. Like especially, those who know dominoes, when you're playing dominoes, dominoes is a serious, serious game.

If you're playing with your uncles, oh my gosh, you're getting schooled — that if you want to talk about education, you are getting schooled during that game, all my days. So, yeah.

And they don't like it. They don't like it.

Lynda: They're not going to let kids win, are they? So, we're coming to the end of our show today and we like to usually end with a saying. Do you have a saying that you live by? It can be a family one or something you've learned in your friendship group.

Kenrick: Do you know what? From a Boy Blue point of view, I'll say one of our sayings is “Because we can.”

Lynda: Oh, yes. I like that.

Kenrick: Sometimes people are like, la, la, la, whatever, whatever. I say, because we can, that just brings that motivation. If we can do it, we do it because we can.

Lynda: I’m going to live by that one. I like that one. I thought you were going to say something like, “Leave it on the dance floor.” That's what I always say to my niece, when I'm helping her train.

Kenrick: That's sounds good. 

Lynda: I say leave it on dance floors.

Kenrick: I personally wouldn't use it, myself.

Catherine: I love that saying, “Because we can.” I think it's a phrase we should be spreading throughout the Caribbean community.

It's so easy for us to feel limited by the way the media and wider society portray us. But just take Kenrick's advice on board everybody, you can do anything you want to.

[Music Playing]

Lynda: Yes, you can. Though, I still think my sayings were good too: “Leave it on the dance floor mum. Just leave it on the dance floor.”

Catherine: Okay. Well, sadly, that's it for season one of Objeks & Tings. We really hope you've enjoyed hearing about Caribbean lives through the objeks and tings we cherish most.

Lynda: Yes. We hope you've had as much joy hearing it as we have had making it.

Catherine: If you want to keep up with us outside of the podcast, please do visit our socials.

Lynda: We are Museumand_ on Twitter, and Museumand on Instagram.

Catherine: You can also find out more about our work as a museum at museumand.org.

Lynda: So, for the last time in this series, bye-bye.

Catherine: Bye.

E11 - Provision

Speakers: Catherine Ross, Lynda-Louise Burrell, & Chris Mitchell

[Music Playing]

Riaz: My mother's Dutch pot.

Jocelyn: A poster, which is a map of Barbados.

Female: My grandmother's suitcase.

Lenny: A flyer with a sound system on it.

Catherine: We all have one of those objects, don't we?

Lynda: Something so sentimental, we've had it for years.

Catherine: And losing or breaking it is not an option.

Lynda: These objects tell a story about us.

Catherine: About our lives, upbringing, and family.

Lynda: And for Caribbeans whose stories are so often left untold, we are bringing these stories to the fore.

Riaz: They're just pots on a surface level, but they're kind of loaded in history.

Lenny: These flyers would've been going back to the seventies, so it brings back great memories.

Catherine: This is Objeks & Tings.

Lynda: A podcast celebrating Caribbeans and their favourite tings.

Catherine: Episode 11: Provision.

Hello, and welcome to Objeks & Tings, the weekly podcast celebrating Caribbean culture in the UK through the objects that people of Caribbean descent treasure most. I'm Catherine Ross.

Lynda: And I'm Lynda-Louise Burrell, Catherine's daughter. Together, we run Museumand, a social history museum celebrating Caribbean culture in the UK.

And this year, we're celebrating 75 years since the Windrush generation's arrival in Britain. Using this podcast to shine a light on the amazing things Caribbean culture has brought to the UK.

Catherine: And for the past 11 weeks now, we've been using this podcast as the space to do it. Speaking to different guests about an object they own that means something really special to them, and speaks to their Caribbean roots.

Lynda: We've heard stories about black-led magazines, Caribbean banking, even last week, about afro hair and beauty products.

Catherine: Oh, yes. We love speaking about that one.

Lynda: Yes, as beautiful women, we love beauty products.

Catherine: Yes. And this week, we've got a guest with an object unlike any we've had before. His job gives a hint at what it might be.

Chris: Hi, I'm Chris Mitchell, AKA, the Actual Factual. I'm an artist, a musician, journalist and audio producer.

Lynda: Ooh, the Actual Factual, I like it. But where did you get that name from?

Chris: So, the actual factual came from my podcast co-host Sumit Sharma. We host a podcast called Breaking Atoms, which is a hip-hop podcast. And every episode, we give ourselves AKAs from the weird to the wonderful.

And one day, he called me the Actual Factual because I have insane memory for detail and album line of notes, and I really love history and connecting dots. So, the Actual Factual stuck, and I've been called the Actual Factual ever since.

Lynda: Oh, wow. So, this is going to be music related, do you reckon?

Catherine: I hope so. Music is such a huge part of Caribbean culture. I think it’s time to explore it.

Lynda: Okay. Let's hear what object Chris has in store for us.

Chris: The object I'm going to be talking about today is my upcoming solo album titled Provision. It's an album that is very close to my heart. It's the album that I've been wanting to make for my whole life because it's a celebration of my British and Caribbean culture.

The album is called Provision because in Jamaica, provision is food from the earth. Food like yams, dumplings, vegetables, and people eat these kinds of foods for the natural benefits, and also, to provide energy before a long and hard working day.

This album is provision in music form that helps people to get through their day and life in general.

One of my favourite songs on the album is a song called Aliens. And on this song, you'll hear factual accounts from second and third generation, West Indian children about our place in Britain.

We touch on gentrification, racism, tolerance, acceptance, and what British life feels like for us.

This song is really, really special because my wife actually gave me the idea. She said, “Why don't you just write a song about what it's like to be black in Britain and just call it Aliens?” And I was like, “Yeah, that's a really good idea.”

And one of my favourite parts from the song is when I open it up and I say:

“Listen, my forefathers came to England not to see the sights, they saw a place where they could chase the taste a sweeter life instead of being …”

The reason why I really wanted to touch on that is I wanted to paint the picture of what it was like for my grandparents and my forefathers to come to this country where they were promised a better life.

One of my favourite lines from the song is,

“A Windrush influx, human and cultural cargo. Dreams, embargo, they need that bread to raise the hard dough …”

That is what I like to call a triple entendre. So, need, as in you need something, but you also need bread with your hands. Bread is another word that people use for money or cash. Hard dough is paper money, it's cash money.

Hard dough is a type of bread in the Caribbean community. It's really stodgy. It will fill you up really quickly. But it's amazing and it's often sweet. So, I really love that line “in need of bread to raise the hard dough.” I think it's probably one of my brightest moments as a writer.

Lynda: That line is so powerful. I thought double entendres were tricky enough, but Chris has gone for triple.

Catherine: Dubler entend.

Lynda: Oh, sorry, mom.

Catherine: But yes, he's very clever, isn't he? And it's so great to be able to share his music with everyone.

As I said earlier, music is so integral to our community, from Calypso singers like Lord Kitchener in the early days of the Windrush generation, through to ska and reggae.

And even now, hip-hop like Chris makes. I can't wait to hear some more about how he put his new record together and how he drawn his heritage to make it. So, let's jump right in.

Lynda: Hello, Chris?

Chris: Hello.

Catherine: Hi. How are you?

Chris: I'm doing well. How are you?

Catherine: I'm fine, thanks. And I'm really looking forward to this conversation with you. You seem to have done a bit of everything. You're an artist, a musician, audio producer. Is there anything you don't do?

Chris: That's a really good question. I don't play the guitar. I definitely don't play the guitar and I don't do vegetables. Not often, anyway, I need to fix that.

But I am a creative soul. I do many things, like you say. I'm an audio producer, musician, journalist, rapper, curry goat connoisseur, resting fan. I have my hands in many, many, many different pies.

Catherine: Alright. Could you tell us a bit about your work as a musician? Would you call yourself a rapper as well?

Chris: I call myself a rapper, and I take that title very, very proudly. I first started rapping in 1992 when I saw Kris Kross on the TV. Them being the same age as me and having the same name made me realise that I could not just be a spectator in hip-hop culture, but I could also be a contributor.

And coupled with this, my mom was the choir director at our local church, so I grew up singing in the choir. I sang lead a few times. I ended up singing at the Royal Albert Hall.

So, music is a big part of my life, but at the heart of it, I am a rapper, I am an MC, and it's something that I'm extremely proud of.

Lynda: That was really good. And I'll actually call you a cultural lyricist.

Chris: I love that. I'm going to add that to my bio, I like that.

Lynda: I've never made an album before and I would like to make an album, and if I did, I think it would be a smash hit and a banger, definitely.

Catherine: She thinks.

Chris: I agree, I agree.

Lynda: I'm not the best singer, but you know, you can do all that auto tunes and all of that. So, could you tell us about your upcoming album and how you made it?

Chris: So, the very first song recorded for the album is called Epiphany. And an epiphany is in a moment of realisation. And thr beat just spoke to me, and it made me want to tell a story about my grandmother.

I was raised by my grandmother in Kensal Rise. And she died in 2007. And on that song, I share a story that I've never shared publicly before.

That the day before she died, it was New Year's Eve. And I went out and I said to her, “I'll be back soon.” But I came back late, and then I got the call that she was sick.

And I've struggled with survivor's guilt that whole time. So, I decided to talk about it on that album.

But then as the album progressed, these themes started coming out, themes about being black and British, being a second, third generation West Indian person, and what Britain feels like for us.

And working with T-1 and Kaiser, I just felt that West Indian vibe just come out of me in a way that I felt so comfortable. It's something I've struggled with throughout my career.

As proud as I am as a Jamaican and as a West Indian, I always held back on it because I thought people wouldn't get it or it would sound forced. But in this album, it all just came out. The patois, the references, I've got a song called Kananga Water. It's just a beautiful celebration of all these experiences with a massive focus on storytelling.

So, to answer your question, a process of making an album is, it's important to have a theme. It's also important to have a sonic identity, which I've achieved by having two producers.

And it's important to say that one of the producers, T-1 actually mentored the other producer and kind of showed him the ropes in terms of how to make beats. Everyone who's heard this album has said, this is the best album you have ever made.

Lynda: Oh, wonderful.

Chris: And it's probably going to be my last one. So, it's going to be a beautiful swan song. And I'm so proud and I am excited. It's taken a long time. It's taken three years to make it. And it's the longest I've ever taken on making an album.

But when you're cooking down the Saturday soup, sometimes you have to take your time. You've got to make sure those flavours come through, the yum and the dumpling and it's got to be right.

And if it takes three hours, it takes three hours. And in this case, it's taken three years, but the meal is nearly ready.

Lynda: Definitely. Why will this possibly be your last album?

Chris: For me, when I started making music on a professional level, it was never to be a superstar. I don't particularly care for fame. I don't think I'll be good at it. I am not. I'm not going to be on the cover of GQ. I'll not be on the level of Drake, and I'm totally fine with that.

For me, I just wanted to make music that I could be proud of. And in each release, I could show a level of artistic and human growth. With this album, I feel like I've got to a point where I've said everything I need to say, and I look back at my music catalogue and I just feel … I feel so proud.

I just feel like I've got a body of work that can really stand the test of time. There’s music that I put out 10, 15 years ago that people still talk about to this day.

I'm a very spiritual person. And I just feel that the ancestors and a higher power is saying, “You've done your thing, go out with a bang,” and it's going to be a bang, I promise you that.

Lynda: That's fantastic, and I like that. I don't think we should have to keep doing something and forcing it. You went there with a purpose, with a mission, you've achieved that and you're going on to the next thing. And I think everyone should live their life like that.

So, when I hear your music, I really do hear a conscious black man of Caribbean descent. Your words have meaning, they have teachings, if you like. For me, they reflect back to the Black Caribbean experience. It all summed up in words.

And I like the fact that your words also speak to different generations. Because listening to it with my mom, because I’m really young, and she's really old (I'm not that young anymore, I have to remember that).

It really does speak to us as in the different generations. And we don't always come together and listening to music, do we?

But I love the beat. I love what you were saying. I love that it summed up my life as well. You know, being a black British person of Caribbean descent. Was that your intent?

Chris: Yes and no. I made this album for us, and I think that's a rebellious act in itself because a lot of musicians nowadays, they're trying to make music for the masses. They are trying to appeal to as many people as possible. This album is a black album, and I make no bones about it.

When we started making this album, I told everyone, I said, “This album is for me and my people, them. If someone from outside the community likes it and understands it, then that's totally fine with me.”

When Dolly Parton made the song Jolene, she was talking to Jolene directly. We were just privy to the conversation. This album is the same thing. I'm speaking to people like me, and I'm speaking to people like you.

And if people from outside the community understand it and appreciate it, then welcome, thank you for giving us your time and your ears. But this album is made by a black British man of West Indian descent. And if my people understand it and like it and love it, then I will sleep easy.

Catherine: Let me clap.

Lynda: Bravo, bravo. Thank you.

Catherine: In your song, Aliens, you wanted to paint a picture of what it was like for your grandparents to come to this country, promised a better life. Can you tell us a little bit more about their experiences?

Chris: You're going to make me cry. So, my grandparents came here in the sixties. My grandfather came here in the early sixties, I think 61. And my grandma came here in 1963.

As it was back in those days, the husband, the father, the man would come over, he would save a bit of money, and then send for his partner in this case, was my grandmother. And then my mom came in 1964, and they ended up living in South London.

My grandma would always tell me the address, 293 Milkwood Road. You know how West Indian people are like, the best story tellers are-

Catherine: Very precise, we have long memories.

Chris: Very precise. And that DNA strand has come through me because my memory is absolutely nuts. But 293 Milkwood Road, and my grandma would always share the story of these little paraffin cookers, and that they would cook on the top of the stairs.

And it was a house with a number of rooms. And my grandma and my granddad, they would share a room and people would share the cooker.

I remember a family friend by the name of Mrs. Johnson. She told me that every person in the house had their own ring on the cooker. And if someone got up early, then you can use someone else's ring. It was very, very hard for them.

My grandma was not formally educated, so she didn't necessarily have qualifications, but she graduated from the school of life with an honour’s degree.

She was a cleaner at the BBC. And just talking about it now, and being a podcast producer, doing shows for the BBC, and sometimes I walk in the BBC and I get so emotional because I remember my grandma leaving late at night to go and clean at the BBC.

And I'm now walking on those same floors that she used to sweep and clean.

Catherine: So, proud of her.

Chris: It was hard to look back and I think of their sacrifices. My granddad, a very, very, loving man, and he was the first positive example of a man I ever saw. The way he treated my grandma, in hindsight, he was very active, very, very present.

I have fond memories of his fried dumplings were incredible. We used to have church on Friday nights, and for years, I did not make it to church on Friday nights because that's the night my granddad cooked fried dumplings.

And I remember he used to cut them in half and put bacon inside them.

Lynda: My favourite.

Chris: Oh, man, it was incredible. So, yeah, I lived with my grandparents because my mom and dad lived with my grandparents whilst they were saving money to buy their place.

But what happened was I ended up staying with my grandparents because school and church were so nearby. And I was embedded in the community, and all my friends were nearby. So, yeah, I spent years at my grandma, at my granddad's place.

It's the family home. It's still there, we still own it. Even in the midst of gentrification, we still own it. We are like one of two black families on the street now.

So, I reflect on my past and I reflect on my grandparents' story and their friends, and the community. And I truly believe that we are the beneficiary generation because they sacrificed so much.

And now that we are in this position where we can do the things that they only dreamed of, it's up to us now to sacrifice so that the future generation can benefit also.

Lynda: That's so true.

Catherine: Yeah, what a lovely tribute to your grandparents. We need more of that. Well done. Thank you.

Now, we're coming towards the end of the show, and we always like to end it with a Caribbean saying or any other saying. Do you have a say in that you live by?

Chris: I've got a few. I remember my grandma said to me one day … oh my grandma, she should have been a rapper. She said to me … we were just talking about fluid friendships and how life can fluctuate, and she said, “New broom sweep, clean old broom know corners.”

When she said that to me, I said, “What do you mean?” And she basically said, “You know, new broom sweep clean, but the old brooms know the corners. The old brooms know the history. The old brooms know the stories, the old brooms know the details.”

But if there's one that I live by in recent years, it's, “Yah fi mash ants, fi know what inna dem belly.” Now, I will translate.

Lynda: Please do.

Chris: You have to crush an ant to know what's in their belly. And the translation is, sometimes in order to find out what people really feel about you, you'll find out when you've upset them or there's a disagreement.

They will tell you exactly what they feel about you. I feel that growing up often people said to me, people say things they don't mean when they're angry. And when I heard that saying that, “Yah fi mash ants fi know what inna dem belly,” that said to me, “No, sometimes people will tell you exactly what they feel about you when they are angry.”

So, I love that saying, just because it's so wild. And every time I say it, I get to tell this really cool backstory. And then when my grandma first told me, she say, “Yah fi mash ants fi know what inna dem belly.” And then she just walked off and she let me sit with it.

I was like, “Alright, alright, that's my favourite one.”

Lynda: She's totally right. And I do totally believe her. It's true. But no ants were harmed in the making of this podcast to point it out.

Chris: Absolutely, not. No, no, no.

Lynda: It's just a saying.

Chris: No animal cruelty going on here.

Lynda: Well, thank you so much for your time today and that's the end of our conversation. But remember this, your music is very, very, very good, I applaud you. But it could only be bettered if mum and I did a guest appearance, but a few bars.

I know all the right lingo and yeah, your music would be out of this world. You’ll sell a billion copies, but just leaving it there.

Chris: Let’s do it. No, let's do it. No seriously, let's do an interlude or a skit. Let's get you on the album.

Lynda: Oh, my goodness, yes.

Chris: I'm saying this publicly. Let's make it happen.

Catherine: That's lovely.

Lynda: See you guys, let’s just put it out there, put it into the universe and it'll come true.

Catherine: No, you are a very generous person and full of integrity. There aren't many people like you. I applaud you. God bless your grandma for starting that process with you.

Lynda: Doing a good job. Thank you.

Catherine: Thank you.

Chris: Thank you for having me.

Lynda: I love that saying from Chris, it's a kind of no-nonsense phrase that Caribbean grandmas are the best at. You speak your mind when you are angry, don't you, mum? Well, you have to be really angry.

Catherine: Me, I'm never angry, as you know.

Lynda: Yeah, right.

Catherine: And on that note, that's all we have time for today, except to say Chris's album, Provision is out early 2024. And you'll be able to find it on Spotify.

[Music Playing]

Lynda: Next week, we're ending the series.

Catherine: Oh no.

Lynda: With a bang, with dance choreographer, Kenrick Sandy.

Catherine: Kenrick will be talking about something a lot of young Caribbeans enjoy and older Caribbeans remember fondly.

Lynda: But until next time, bye-bye.

Catherine: Bye.

E10 - Afro Hair and Beauty

Speakers: Catherine Ross, Lynda-Louise Burrell & Rudi Page

[Music Playing]

Riaz: My mother's Dutch pot.

Jocelyn: A poster, which is a map of Barbados.

Female: My grandmother's suitcase.

Lenny: A flyer with a sound system on it.

Catherine: We all have one of those objects, don't we?

Lynda: Something so sentimental, we've had it for years.

Catherine: And losing or breaking it is not an option.

Lynda: These objects tell a story about us.

Catherine: About our lives, upbringing, and family.

Lynda: And for Caribbeans whose stories are so often left untold, we are bringing these stories to the fore.

Riaz: They're just pots on a surface level, but they're kind of loaded in history.

Lenny: These flyers would've been going back to the seventies, so it brings back great memories.

Catherine: This is Objeks & Tings.

Lynda: A podcast celebrating Caribbeans and their favourite tings. Episode 10: Afro Hair & Beauty.

Catherine: Hello, this is Objeks & Tings, a weekly show celebrating Caribbean culture in the UK. I'm Catherine Ross and this is my daughter, Lynda.

Lynda: Hello.

Catherine: Together, we run Museumand, a social history museum we take around the UK so we can meet and connect with people of all different ages.

Lynda: Our exhibitions focus on the lives of Caribbeans in the UK and share all the brilliant things we Caribbeans have done here.

Catherine: And this year, to celebrate 75 years since the Windrush first came to Britain, we are celebrating the Windrush generation in particular, with help from this podcast.

Lynda: Yes, each week we speak to a different guest about an object close to their heart.

Catherine: And use that as a jumping off point to discuss their family and life experiences.

Lynda: Not every guest will be from the Windrush generation, but if you’re Caribbean and living in the UK, chances are, you will have a story about someone who is.

Catherine: And that's what we are dealing with here at Museumand. Stories, they are our currency.

Lynda: So, shall we meet today's guest then?

Catherine: Yes.

Rudi: My name is Rudi Page. I am a Management Consultant, and I am the former Sales and Marketing Manager of Dyke & Dryden, the leading importers and wholesalers of afro hair and beauty products during the 1970s, 80s and 90s.

Lynda: Great, hair, I love talking about black women's hair. The innovation of tools and products for afro hair has come so far over the years, so I can't wait to hear what object Rudi has in store for us.

Catherine: Yes, so can you guess what it might be?

Lynda: An afro pic, foam rollers, dark and lovely like me.

Catherine: You're almost there, but it sounds like you're going through our bathroom cabinet. Let's find out from the man himself.

Rudi: My object is a hot comb and this hot comb, it has metal teeth, wooden handle, and it was used by Caribbean women to straighten their hair, particularly during the 1950s and 60s.

There was absolutely a Windrush generation look wavy at the front with plenty of length.

My mother was one of the best stylists using the hot comb when I was a child. And so, on a Saturday night, women would come round for her to style their hair before they all went out to party.

And then in later life, when I became the sales and marketing manager for Dyke & Dryden, the hot comb and afro combs were an integral part of my business life at the time.

So, I always had that close affinity to the hot comb and always made sure that I sold one wherever I went. In fact, I used to carry one round in the car, for sentimental reasons.

The hot comb looks like an ordinary comb, but the teeth are metal, and it has a wooden handle, and there's approximately 10 to 15 teeth. So, the hot comb would be put on the stove or on the top of a hot paraffin lamp, because we're now talking about the 1960s.

And the paraffin lamp was something that was used in all Caribbean households at that time. Of course, there was no central heat. The paraffin lamp gets very hot after a while, there's a slight change in colour because it's metal.

It's always through judgement to know exactly when to take it off and when to place it on its hair. And that's part of the skill of course, knowing when to do that.

I can remember my mother on one side of the room with friends, they would be sitting, chatting, joking as she was doing their hair before they all went out. I can remember music in the background.

If the comb was too hot and it was placed on the hair, there may be a slight sizzling sound, which is not a good sound, but for me, there was not any sound because my mother was one of the best stylists at the time.

Catherine: I love the idea of Rudi carrying around a hot comb for sentimental reasons. I'm really sentimental too and hang on to everything that's special to me. In fact, I love documenting my life through Objeks & Tings.

Lynda: Yes, you even keep our podcast scripts, don't you?

Catherine: I do, indeed.

Lynda: You love a momentum, mum.

Catherine: True.

Lynda: But back to the hot comb, because it really was and still is for many, an integral part of Caribbean life. Hot combs are a symbol of time spent with family and friends to have a wealth of personal stories attached to them. I can't wait to hear some more of Rudi's and share with you of our own.

Catherine: Hello, Rudi.

Rudi: Good day.

Lynda: Hi.

Rudi: Good day.

Catherine: Right, tell us where in the Caribbean are your family from?

Rudi: My mother came from Montserrat, my father Jamaica, and I was born in London, East London.

Catherine: And when did they come to London then?

Rudi: Both of them arrived in the same year, actually, 1955.

Lynda: They were early comers then.

Rudi: Absolutely.

Catherine: Earlier than me.

Rudi: Yeah, so yes, I am a real child of the Windrush generation.

Catherine: Have you only lived in London then or grew up in London?

Rudi: No. In fact, we sort of lived in Finsbury Park, and then we moved to Slough. So, I actually regard myself as a Slough man as we used to say in the 1970s. We used to regard ourselves according to our town.

Catherine: So, what did they get up to then? Come on, sell it to me.

Lynda: Were you a bad boy?

Rudi: No, no, no. I was always well-behaved. That's one thing I will always say about myself. I was always well-behaved, so I was very much about football and enjoying myself going out in the 1970s. Of course, lovers rock time, sound systems, that's the 1970s for me.

Catherine: That sounds very proper, I approve of all that. But then tell us how did you move from that to Dyke & Dryden?

Rudi: They were looking for somebody to handle sales because they were going to have a major push. At the time, of course, this is as the curly perm was growing. So, Mr. Wade asked me if I would be interested and I said, “Yes, of course.” Very dynamic industry.

So, I joined Dyke & Dryden on the 20th of July, 1981. I mean, Dyke & Dryden actually began in 1965, but it wasn't until really the 1970s where there was quite a good wholesale business.

And then the 1980s with the trends for curly perms and relaxers. And that's where the company really grew.

Lynda: And I had both of those, curly perm and relaxers, and that smell of chemicals. And the burn.

Rudi: The sodium hydroxide.

Lynda: So, what was your proudest moment working with Dyke & Dryden? I'm sure there must have been many because you really changed or even gave birth to this whole industry.

Rudi: So, in July 1982, I was promoted to Sales and Marketing Manager, and I won a trip to Atlanta.

In fact, it was really the first trade mission for Caribbean business owners where 40 of us went to Atlanta, to the Bronner Brothers Show. At the time, that was the largest show in the world when it came to the whole black hair industry.

Going to America and seeing how the Americans … the layout of the Bronner Brothers show in terms of the music, the style, the fashion, and the whole glitz at the time for us was totally a different world.

Took all that in, and then coming back and putting together and coordinating the original afro hair and beauty, that's probably still my greatest triumph.

Lynda: That was you, woo-woo. You've really taught us and given us access to all of these things. Because before that, a lot of people in the world I suppose never saw afro hair, beauty, black people as being beautiful apart from ourselves — we thought ourselves beautiful, but the rest of the world could see and hear it. And that's amazing that you put that together.

Rudi: You make a great point. I'll tell you why — because Mr. Dyke, said that we had to have our own trade exhibition in this country. Because prior to that, of course, we'd always had beauty shows, Miss Afro, West Indian and all those kinds of shows.

But that was us enjoying ourselves and it was really for our communities, part of our cultural esteem, wasn't it, to have those sorts of shows.

And you are right, there wasn't this recognition of us in the wider world as looking good, making an economic contribution to the country as well. We weren't really seen there. So, afro hair & beauty really demonstrated that.

Lynda: I think it's really amazing what you did with the show, and even now, all of the new young hot brands for afro hair care that are out there, those people would've gone to the show and got inspired.

I know a few hairdressers actually that we've had over the years that would always go to your show, and then also go to Bronner Brothers and also have to go to … Atlanta is the home of afro hair, isn’t it?

Rudi: Absolutely.

Lynda: So, it's amazing all those little brands that are popping up, actually they're doing really well. So, they started small, but they're now quite large, advertising on TV and people like Rucker and Charlotte Manson, and all those other brands, all gave birth and all started because of afro hair & beauty.

Catherine: Let's talk about the hot comb, now.

Rudi: Of course, you mean the pressing comb, but we Caribbeans of course, say hot comb.

Catherine: Except if you come from Saint Kitts, we call it the iron comb.

Rudi: What the … I've never heard that one.

Catherine: Alright.

Lynda: Well, that’s more an island thing.

Rudi: Okay, okay.

Lynda: Rudi, have you ever used a hot comb, iron comb, pressing comb?

Rudi: Certainly not. I was always on the selling the marketing side of the industry. You wouldn't want me to do your hair, trust me. Certainly not with a hot comb.

Catherine: I have many stories about why even now, I don't even trust it when I go to a hairdresser from … even nowadays, they use it a little bit, but the burning of your skull and-

Lynda: The sizzle, the style.

Catherine: And then it leaves a mark. You get it all done up because you're going somewhere special and then you've got a mark everybody knows where you’ve been.

Rudi: A tattoo.

Lynda: Yeah, that's a good one.

Catherine: That’s a good one.

Lynda: The hot comb tattoo, burn you up.

Rudi: That's what we used to say. We used to call them tattoos.

Lynda: Remember that time you burnt Joe on the forehead?

Catherine: Yeah, Joe's my eldest daughter. I was trying to turn her into a young lady now. She was old enough now to get her hair press.

Lynda: And mom scarred her for life.

Rudi: Oh dear. Oh dear. Oh dear.

Lynda: How many families have done that though? It's never happened to me yet.

Catherine: But I do miss when the smell and things — it's all nostalgic, isn't it? The sizzle, like you said, Lynda.

Rudi: Yeah, of course.

Lynda: The smell of the burning of your actual hair. But it looked amazing after though, didn't it? You can't beat a hot comb, hot press. Even now, you have all of those different ways of flattening and straightening your hair with gadgets, but nothing beats our old fashioned way of doing it.

Rudi: That heat from a paraffin lamp can't be matched.

Catherine: No.

Lynda: Well, because I'm so super young, I never had it on the paraffin heat stove. I've heard about that … on the stove.

Rudi: The stove. Yeah, it was a stove really.

Lynda: I remember that, sitting in the kitchen and wincing every time mom came at me with it like, “Oh, I don't want to do it. I don't want to do it.”

Catherine: And me shouting, “Keep still, keep still.”

Lynda: Sunday night, ready for Monday morning for school.

Rudi: Exactly. I mean, that's why the kitchen was one of the best saloon places in the community.

Lynda: That's probably why we still go to the saloon. You get your head done, but you have to eat something because it's been ingrained in you since you were a child.

Rudi: Part of the culture.

Lynda: So, Rudi, your mum sounds great at doing hair, is she still with us?

Rudi: Unfortunately, she passed at an early age. She died of cancer at the age of 45. And in fact, she died five months before the launch of Afro Hair & Beauty. So, that's why I've always dedicated the original Afro Hair & Beauty to my mother, Esther Elena Lee from Montserrat.

Lynda: Oh, lovely name. I like that.

Catherine: Oh, you sweetheart. What a lovely son.

Lynda: So, without your mom … all black women in England, all owe gratitude to your mum for inspiring you to do that.

Rudi: Absolutely. Because we could have never dreamed that that connection in terms of what my mother was doing. And then just those few years later that I would be involved in the launch of still the most significant show in our community after all this time.

This year we have been celebrating the 40th anniversary of Afro Hair & Beauty and we've kind of integrated it into our overall Windrush 75 activities.

Lynda: Lovely time to be all together, isn't it? But can you tell us a bit more about your mom? What else does she shine at? Was there anything else she's really good at?

Rudi: She was just a caring person, had the challenges at the time, single mother. But like I said, passing quite early in her life, so some of the things she probably wanted to do, she didn't get to do. So, yeah, that was what she was really known for; her styling.

Catherine: In what ways does the hot comb make you feel close to your Caribbean heritage?

Rudi: I think it's a symbol. It's a symbol of life in the UK, just like the front room.

Lynda: Oh, yes.

Rudi: Those of us who grew up in the 1960s and 70s know what it means when we talk about the front room. You better not go in there, you better not touch, you know.

Lynda: That's so true. But there's still a few obviously, because what we do, we work a lot with the Windrush generation, and when we go around to their homes even just to chat, not even to actually do any work, and have a social time, the front room is still the untouched room for a lot of people.

Rudi: That gram-

Lynda: Don't touch the-

Rudi: The cabinet, the glasses, all those kinds of things. So, yeah, so I think it's part of our culture, just like the paraffin lamp, p8articularly the green one.

Lynda: That is so true. We do have one of those in our collection and whenever we have that out and we show that, the amounts of stories we still collect from people, so it really is. It's anonymous and people always then have to mention the hot comb.

Rudi: Absolutely. And I've still got the scar on my left hand from touching the paraffin lamp. And if you can't hear, as we say, if you can't hear …

Catherine: You feel.

Rudi: That's it.

Lynda: As my mum tells me on a daily basis, unfortunately.

Catherine: We'd like to end each episode with a saying, you've already mentioned one. And if I could take you back to that, you said, “If you won’t hear, you'll feel.” Have you got something else you might want to share with us or some sort of saying anyway?

Rudi: It's not really a saying, but I would like to end on the note, I would be really happy if we could recover lost expertise in taking care of our own hair because I think that's very important for the cultural esteem for the future generations.

Catherine: There's nothing better than sitting with your mom and she's teaching you how to plat and the importance of parting and straight partings.

Lynda: Greasing your roots.

Catherine: Yeah. Again, I'm Caribbean, Windrush generation, we grease our roots, we don't moisturise and oil, all of that. So, we grease our roots and stuff like that, and explain why it's important and you work out the styles between you. I think it's really nice.

Rudi: It's bonding as well. And one of the things, as you mentioned, that the roles that we played at Dyke & Dryden is that we used to go and speak in schools, in children's homes, including Dr. Bernardo's.

Because again, in those days, there was a lot of young children, mixed race as well as Caribbean children who were in these homes and they just didn't know how to take care of their hair.

So, if you think, again, in those times, that was kind of a neglect of the young person, which impacts on their cultural esteem as well. So, Dyke &Dryden were very clear that that was one of our roles in the community. So, as staff, we used to do that.

Lynda: I think you're totally right. And unfortunately, we do need to look after our hair and the culture behind it. Because we’re still asked as a museum, and it's usually by children's homes to come in to do a talk about hair. So, it's something that we all need.

In fact, even myself, I must admit, which is really bad to admit out there in the world, but I don't do anything to do my hair myself. I grease it in the morning. I still say grease, but I go to the hairdressers once or twice a week, but it's usually once a week, and get them to do everything.

Wash it, grease up my roots. I'm so lazy. Look, I don't have any children, so I can't pass down my bad habits.

Rudi: But as you say that, that's interesting. But COVID brought some lessons back to many women about their hair because they weren't, a couple of years able to go to the saloons. And also, that caused a lot of women to go back to the natural style as well.

Lynda: That's what I did over COVID because I moved in with my mum because I didn't want to live on my own over COVID. Mum used to grease up my hair once a week, didn't you?

Catherine: Yeah.

Lynda: Plat it up, and then when the world opened again, I didn't go to have a relaxer. I went to have parting, and my hair just grew and grew and grew and it was quite natural. And I was like, “Is that all it took? Just leave my hair to grow and do its own thing.”

Rudi: Absolutely, that's nature. Leave it alone, moisturise it and it grows.

Lynda: Can I just say my saying — it's not really saying, it's something mum used to say to me and my sister about doing our own hair when we were younger, when I did try and do my hair. She always just said, “Remember to comb your finnigans.” The little bits back here. Some people call pepper grain-

Rudi: Absolutely. We don't know about those.

Catherine: Alright. Thank you very much.

Lynda: Thank you so much for our chat today. I've really enjoyed it. And thank you for coining that phrase, “afro hair and beauty.”

Rudi: Thank you.

Lynda: Because I am definitely afro and I'm definitely beautiful. See, you soon, bye.

Catherine: Bye.

Rudi: Bye. Take care.

Lynda: I love that ending sentiment from Rudi. You know, as Caribbeans, it's easy to lose the practices of our elders and ancestors, especially because Caribbeans tend to move around the world so much.

So, I'm keen to take his advice on board, research all techniques, and get back to my roots, literally.

[Music Playing]

Catherine: Yes, that's the best advice I've heard for a while. Hair care is definitely self-care.

Lynda: It really is. I truly believe that.

Catherine: So, that's all we have time for today. If you're liking what you're hearing, please get in touch.

Lynda: Yes. I know we say this every week, but we honestly love hearing from you.

Catherine: You can find us at Museumand on Instagram.

Lynda: And at Museumand_ on Twitter.

Catherine: And you can also head to our website, museumand.org to find out more about our work, sharing Caribbean brilliance across the UK.

Lynda: Next week, we'll be speaking to someone whose object is something you can all interact with at home.

Catherine: Yes, it's going to be a multimedia extravaganza.

Lynda: But until then, bye-bye.

Catherine: Bye.

E9 - First Hand or Last Hand?

Speakers: Catherine Ross, Lynda-Louise Burrell, & Paul Henriques

[Music Playing]

Riaz: My mother's Dutch pot.

Jocelyn: A poster which is a map of Barbados.

Female: My grandmother's suitcase.

Lenny: A flyer with a sound system on it.

Catherine: We all have one of those objects, don't we?

Lynda: Something so sentimental, we've had it for years.

Catherine: And losing or breaking it is not an option.

Lynda: These objects tell a story about us.

Catherine: About our lives, upbringing, and family.

Lynda: And for Caribbeans whose stories are so often left untold, we are bringing these stories to the fore.

Riaz: They're just pots on a surface level, but they're kind of loaded in history.

Lenny: These flyers would've been going back to the seventies, so it brings back great memories.

Catherine: This is Objeks & Tings.

Lynda: A podcast celebrating Caribbeans and their favourite tings.

Catherine: Episode nine: first hand or last hand?

Hello, and welcome to another episode of Objeks & Tings.

Lynda: The show that celebrates 75 years of the Windrush by the objects we Caribbeans cherish most.

Catherine: I'm Catherine Ross and that was my daughter Lynda Burrell. We run the National Caribbean Heritage Museum, Museumand.

Lynda: Which basically means we put on exhibitions around the UK that celebrate Caribbean heritage and culture.

Catherine: And an extension of that is this podcast, which we started to commemorate this year's 75th Windrush anniversary.

Lynda: We’re on episode nine now, so our regular listeners will know the score. But for those who are new to the show …

Catherine: Welcome.

Lynda: Yes, welcome. And to fill you in, each week, we talk to a different guest about an object they love most.

Catherine: We do this because as museum owners, we love objects and find they make the best conversation starters.

Lynda: Yes, we find they help access conversations you couldn't reach without a prompt.

Catherine: Indeed, but I feel instead of explaining, probably best to demonstrate.

Lynda: You mean instead of sitting here chatting, let's go on with the show?

Catherine: Precisely, it's time to hear from today's guest.

[Music Playing]

Paul: My name is Paul Henriques, I am the founder of Pardna. Pardna is a mobile application that replicates the age-old tradition of pardna.

Catherine: We met Paul while researching for an exhibition called Pardner Hand, a Caribbean answer to British banking exclusion.

Lynda: We bonded with him over our mutual appreciation of pardna, so we thought it's only right to invite him on our show and explain exactly what it is.

Paul: My object today isn't so much an object, it's a ting. And that ting is pardna. Pardna is a communal saving activity where friends and family or members of the community get together, form a group and decide to save a fixed amount each month.

Now, one person in that group will then take a turn to receive the proceeds of that fixed amount that is collected. And next month everyone gets together again, pulls all their pardna money into a fixed pot, and the second person in line will then receive it.

This activity continues until everyone in the group has had a chance to have their payout or their pardna draw as we call it.

Now, the whole thing is managed by a central person, typically a matriarch in the community who is known as the banker. That would be the person to organise the collection and distribution of these proceeds.

And the reason why this activity is so useful is that for some people, it’s a quick cash boost. The first person to get their payout or their draw as we call it, they're getting a cash boost from the members in the group. And the last person to get their draw, it's like they're being helped to achieve a savings goal. So, it's good all-around basically.

The draw is decided by the people within the group. For example, if say, five of you get together, you may decide that you would prefer to receive your draw last because you are saving up for a major holiday that's at the end of the year, for example.

Or you may have a pressing bill that you need to address, and you would prefer to get your draw early.

When I think of Pardna, it just reminds me of when my parents came over to the UK and how it helped them. My parents used to always travel back to Jamaica whenever they could, and it was a pardna money that helped them to do that.

When the Windrush generation came over to the UK, they was locked out of standard credits, they was denied access to certain banking services. And so, something like the pardna for Caribbean people at the time, it was a godsend.

So, it's got a special place in my heart in that sense, and I've seen how much it helps other people. So, it was really important to me to not only carry on the tradition, but to do it in a way that makes it ready for the future basically.

Catherine: Wow, didn't Paul explain that well?

Lynda: Yes, thanks Paul, that was beautifully put.

Catherine: Like many Caribbeans, Paul has been involved in pardna from a very young age.

Lynda: Now, if you're not Caribbean, you might think that is strange. How can a kid be involved in money management?

But if you are Caribbean, you all know we love giving our kids chores and pardna, for a lot of Caribbean kids, is a chore in waiting. Well, that was until Paul's app came along.

Catherine: Confused, again, we let Paul explain.

Hello Paul, how are you?

Paul: Hey, how you doing? I'm fine, thank you. How are you?

Catherine: Yeah, fine. Excited about the conversation to come.

Paul: I can't wait.

Lynda: Hi yuh.

Paul: Hello.

Catherine: Can I just start with where's your family from?

Paul: Yeah, so my family's from Jamaica. My parents were born and grew up in Westmoreland in Jamaica, in the countryside. I've been there many times and I love it.

Catherine: Great, and when did they come to the UK?

Paul: They both came in 1958, but my dad travelled over first.

Lynda: But why did you grow up in the UK?

Paul: I'm a Jamaican Londoner is what I like to say. We grew up in a church. My dad was a pastor. My mom had two jobs and so they kind of shielded us from if there was any kind of struggles, there's things that they did just to help us get by.

Growing up in the seventies, I do remember, especially in North London, the national front marches down the main high street, things like that, being chased in the streets when I was a youth as well by people who didn't like the way you looked, so went for all that, but also had a very happy home life.

Catherine: Thanks for sharing that with us. Can I ask you now, what's your first experiences of pardna?

Paul: Yeah, so my first experience is, I mean, I mentioned earlier how our parents gave us the best that they could with love, et cetera. Finances were tight, but because of pardna, that helped us to get by.

My first experience of it though was being told to deliver the pardna money on a Saturday morning — I just want to watch cartoons, man. You’re given a brown envelope, stuff of cash told to deliver to Mrs. Dixon, a bus ride away. So, I begrudgingly did that.

But that was my first introduction to pardna, and also, remember when it was time for my parents to collect their pardna draw, I remember distinctly. And one of the reasons was my parents did the pardna not only to pay bills, but to pay for trips back to Jamaica.

And there was one time when for some reason, they got the pardna draw, but they lost the envelope. And I remember it was in the house somewhere and we were searching high and low, and it was a bit of a panic.

But yeah, here we found it in the end. But for a short period of time, there was pure panic.

Lynda: Where was it? Who had it?

Paul: I think it was in my parents' bedroom because I was packing to go back, there was lots of things upside down and you know what I mean? It must have slipped behind something. So, that was my kind of earliest memories of pardna when I was growing up.

Catherine: Yeah, I've not heard that story before, that was the first time.

Lynda: I've heard the story of kids having to go and drop it off somewhere. And like you said, begrudgingly having to get on the bus or walk around to sister so and so's house and miss Saturday morning TV.

Paul: Exactly, I went through that.

Catherine: What has being involved in a pardna at such an early age taught you about money management?

Paul: Well, as the years went by, it taught me the importance of managing money and the importance of being disciplined with your money.

The fact that depending on where you are, when it's time to get your pardna draw, if you are towards the end of the pardna cycle, that taught me how to be patient and disciplined and to work towards something that you want instead of having that must have it now kind of mentality.

And also, the extreme importance of community, even though I kind of didn't like in the early days having to travel to Mrs. Dixon's to deliver the pardna, her son was a friend of mine, or he got to be a good friend of mine. And so, there was that kind of community connection, I made a good friend. You get to see people in your community as well.

So, pardna taught me both of those things; the importance of discipline, money management, but also the extreme importance of community and how the collective can help each other.

Lynda: It's so true, and also, you shouldn't really complain about having to miss Saturday morning TV because you actually got a Saturday play date with Mrs. Dixon’s son.

Paul: Yeah.

Lynda: Your mom was doing you a favour.

Paul: Indeed.

Lynda: So, what do you use your personal pardna money for?

Paul: I use mine for holidays. I like to have a certain amount of spending money when I go away. So, that's what I use my pardna of money for.

Lynda: Has that always been the case or has that changed over the years?

Paul: I would say it's always been the case for me personally. I've always liked to have a certain amount of money to spend when I travel or when I go away, and not have to rely on cards or anything like that. So, yes, always really been holiday money for me.

Lynda: I feel really bad because I do pardna as well, but I'm doing mine for one of two reasons. One, maybe to go back to the Caribbean next year or to buy an expensive bag.

Paul: Oh, well.

Lynda: I am firm and very frivolous.

Paul: But you know what, that's fine because if you use your pardna for expensive treats, at least you are not using your credit card or you're not going to a payday lender or you're not doing anything like that. So, that's why pardna is really good for things like that.

Lynda: That's actually absolutely true, somebody else said that to me about pardna. At least our community don't have to go to — I know some people do or lots of people do, but we don't have to just rely on those payday loans and things like that.

Speaker ^: Exactly. Yeah.

Lynda: The community can look after each other and I think that's really important, especially now with the cost-of-living crisis.

Paul: Exactly. Yeah.

Lynda: But can I ask you a bit personal, that's what I like to do. Where do you like to come in the draw, first or last, first or last hand? I'm trying to say it like a good Caribbean, but obviously, my accent's not very good.

Paul: So, for me, it's usually towards the end, because I'm usually saving up for something.

Lynda: I don't blame you, that's what I do as well, I'll spend it off straight away.

Catherine: Can I ask, how many pardnas are you in?

Paul: Two at the moment.

Catherine: Right.

Lynda: And are they our monthly ones or the weekly ones? I know some people do weekly.

Paul: Yeah, the monthly ones at the moment.

Lynda: How much do you spend? Because I know that some people, like the one that I'm in, it's either £80 or £100 a month depending on how many weeks are in the month. But I know some people who do, is it 500? Who's got 500 a month to spend on that? I wish I did.

Paul: I did an event on Saturday, Caribbean event, and I was talking to many people about pardna and I did ask them how much was their pardna hand a month. And some of them are saying like £300, £400 a month.

It's just goes to show that people, they have the money to save a month. They maybe don't want to save it in a bank because they know that that money sits in there and they can easily dip into it and use it. And so, the saving goal is gone.

When you are in a pardna, you are kind of disciplined and committed to the group to save up. And if you're saving up that much, then when it's time to get your draw, it's party time, man. So, you hit a jackpot.

So, me personally, it's more like what I'm in is one's 50 and one's a 100. So, that's what I'm doing a month.

Lynda: Well, that's more palatable. Actually, it's really good, we're having this conversation today because it reminded me this morning that it's my pardna day tomorrow, so I can't be late because Ms. Wint will come for me.

Let's talk about your app, your pardna app. Why did you create it and when did you create it.

Paul: I initially had the idea for creating a digital pardna years and years ago, but only in the last year and a half, couple of years, we've actually built the product. And so, I've always worked in that area. I've always worked in tech, and I've always had an interest in Fintech, which is financial technology.

Back in the day, I had an e-commerce startup and my industry that I currently work in is finances also. Those are my areas of interest. And I wanted to build something that I was one, interested in, but also extremely important, I wanted to build something that was culturally important to me.

A pardna is something that has been in our community or in the UK since the fifties. It's obviously been in our communities back home for who knows how many generations before that.

And we all know how important and how much it helped those who came over to the UK in the 1950s and after that. And so, that was extremely important to me just to do something that was culturally important.

And I guess the third reason was because of how much pardna is needed right now. I saw how it helped my parents, I saw how it helped people in their community, people that I knew.

And of course, with the cost-of-living crisis, which is still ongoing and it's still biting, and it's affecting black people the hardest, it was extremely important to me to build a product that addresses all of these things.

Catherine: So, Paul, your app is very apt.

Paul: Indeed, it is, yes.

Catherine: Especially in these times, it's so important and helpful.

Paul: Absolutely.

Catherine: So, how does the app work?

Paul: So, you download the app, you create an account, you connect the app to your bank account securely via open banking. And what you do then is create a pardna group and you specify, for example, this pardna group has 10 people in it and we are each going to save £100 a month, for example.

Once you've done that, then you send out an invitation to join that group to your nearest and dearest, your close friends and family. And you do all this via the app, and it sends it out via WhatsApp, via email or via text.

They get the email, or they get a text or WhatsApp message, click a link, takes them to the app and then once they've joined, they will then join your group. And once you have filled out all the spaces in your pardna group in the app, the app then says, “Okay, it's time to go, let’s go.”

Sends out a notification to everyone that it’s time to send in your pardna hand via the app. Everyone via a few taps automatically sends in their pardna draw. And this is all done with the user's consent, they consent to everything.

And then whoever's turn it is to receive the pardna draw, the app then sends it to that person automatically, directly to their bank account, and then everyone gets notified. And next month it happens again.

And that cycle happens until everyone has had their turn to get their payout. It makes the whole process extremely simple, extremely easy. There's going to be so much more that we're going to be doing with it. And it's all to do with helping people manage their money.

Just giving people access to finance that they may not have because there's still people who are locked out of high street finance or there's still people who can't get cheap credit, things like that. And they're turned into things like payday lenders.

Over the last couple of years, the government cracked down on payday lenders, but they still exist. And so, an app like pardna is needed more than ever I feel.

Lynda: I think it's fantastic. And when I first did pardna a couple of years ago, it really put me off having to go around to the person's house and drop off the money. So, I started doing bank transfers, which was very different for that person.

But then, with the new one that I'm doing, because everyone's got busy life, she's now accepting transfers which is so much easier. But with this app, because I'm a little bit lazy, this sounds so foolproof, I can do it without thinking.

Catherine: Yeah, I like the plans for the future where it will give people guidance on money, I think that's a great way forward, well done.

But what would you say to people who are still sitting on the fence in terms of whether they should do a pardna, be part of a pardna?

Paul: If they know people in their community who want pardna or who have done pardna, just speak to them. Many, many people do partner. When I was at this event on Saturday, every other person did a pardna.

It was a Caribbean event, and so every other person that was there, and this is from like young to old, they did pardna. And so, there's a reason why they do it and it obviously works for them.

So, what I would say is if you know someone in your community who has done a pardna, speak to them.

Also, I mean, I would say just give it a try. You don't have to join a pardna, £500 a month. You could just do like a small one, just £10 a month, just start extremely small.

Catherine: I know some people who have a small pardna for things like holidays in the UK or a big bill or something. And then those who plan to go back to the Caribbean, and they need money and they've got to make statements when they're out there.

And then those who are having family come, let's say from the states to stay and they want to give them a good time, so they put their money to that.

Unlike you and Lynda, I think I might start with a £10 one and aim high. Who knows where I'll be this time next year.

Lynda: So, Paul, we're coming to the end of our podcast today, but we always like to end the show by asking our guests for a saying.

Now, it can be a Caribbean saying it can be around pardna or money, or it could just be a saying that you really like. Have you got one you can share with us today?

Paul: One, one, cocoa baskets.

Lynda: Yes.

Catherine: That's what I was going to say, we didn't have one.

Lynda: I love that saying and I've heard that saying a lot, but because I don't want to look like a bad Caribbean, I never ask what it actually means. Can you or mum explain?

Paul: Okay, yeah, sure, let me explain. So, okay, imagine you have a cocoa or coconut, and each time you are saving one coconut in a basket, if you do that regularly over a certain amount of time, you put another coconut in, next week you put another coconut in, eventually, your basket will be full. And you've got plenty cocoa in there.

So, you have to take time and eventually, you'll reach your goal.

Lynda: That is perfect for pardna.

Paul: Absolutely.

Lynda: Explains it, doesn't it? Oh, I love that, thank you. Thank you so much.

Catherine: Yeah, that's great. Well done.

Lynda: I love it when a guest chooses a saying that compliments their object. Well, in this case, their ting. I must say though, I thought that saying was referring to cocoa pods not coconuts.

Catherine: And I thought it was all about the cocoa, the vegetable.

Lynda: Gosh, Caribbean sayings and the way that we have the same word for so many different things, kind of confusing.

Catherine: But the sentiment's the same. Start saving slowly, one at a time will soon build up to a significant number.

[Music Playing]

Lynda: Quite right, I totally agree. That's why I'm loving doing pardna myself.

We're nearly getting to the end of our show, but before we go, I can't resist plugging our exhibition.

Catherine: Oh yes, good idea.

Lynda: If you're keen to know more about pardna and the great ways it's helped Caribbean people and a growing number of other communities, do go and visit our exhibition, Pardner Hand at the Bank of England Museum in London.

Catherine: Doors are open daily from 8:00 AM to 3:30 PM but closed on Saturday and Sunday. Check out our website for a link with more info.

Lynda: And if you do go, get in touch and let us know what you've learned. You can find us at Museumand on Instagram and @Museumand_ on Twitter.

Catherine: Next week we'll be speaking to Rudy Page about an object, he would have a hard time using himself.

Lynda: Nice clue. But until then, bye-bye.

Catherine: Bye.

E8 - Smart and Stylish

Speaker: Catherine Ross, Lynda Burrell & Tihara Smith

[Music Playing]

Riaz: My mother's Dutch pot.

Jocelyn: A poster, which is a map of Barbados.

Female: My grandmother's suitcase.

Lenny: A flyer with the sound system on it.

Catherine: We all have one of those objects, don't we?

Lynda: Something so sentimental, we've had it for years.

Catherine: And losing or breaking it is not an option.

Lynda: These objects tell a story about us.

Catherine: About our lives, upbringing, and family.

Lynda: And for Caribbeans whose stories are so often left untold, we are bringing these stories to the fore.

Riaz: They're just pots on the surface level, but they're kind of loaded in history.

Lenny: These flyers would've been going back to the seventies, so it brings back great memories.

Catherine: This is Objeks & Tings.

Lynda: A podcast celebrating Caribbeans and their favourite tings.

Catherine: Episode eight: smart and stylish.

Lynda: Hello, and welcome to Objeks & Tings, the weekly show that celebrates 75 years since the Windrush docked on UK shores, I'm Lynda Burrell.

Catherine: And I'm Catherine Ross. In each episode we welcome a different guest to celebrate Caribbean culture by looking back to an important object in their life.

Lynda: So, why are we doing this? Well, me and my mum …

Catherine: That's me.

Lynda: Run Museumand, a social history and community museum that travels the UK sharing Caribbean stories.

Catherine: You'll find us in schools, churches, shopping centres, and even in parliament.

Lynda: We thought making this podcast was a natural step to go a bit further and share stories directly with you wherever you are. So, thanks for listening.

Catherine: Now, before we get this week's guest to reveal their object, let's meet them first.

[Music Playing]

Tihara: Hello, I'm Tihara Smith and I'm a fashion and product designer from London, and I create products inspired by the Caribbean and the Windrush generation.

Lynda: Ooh, a fashion designer like me. Well, not so much anymore, but I did do a fashion degree and worked as a fashion designer in New York.

Catherine: So, you did and like you, Tihara has branched out a bit from fashion design too.

Tihara: I've been making different accessories and paper products like greeting cards, art prints that have slogans and illustrations that's inspired by the Caribbean and the Windrush.

There's slogans like Keep Britain Kind, which was inspired by some of the graffiti that was when the Windrush generation came, or the slogans people say was “Keep Britain white.” So, it's kind of like a play on that so that we focus on kindness.

Lynda: I’ve got her online shop open here, I love it. I love the badges, the wrapping paper. It really has captured the spirit of the Caribbean, quite the Prezis people. I'm putting things in my basket right now; one for you, two for me.

Catherine: Well, whilst you fill up your basket, can you take a guess at what object Tihara will be talking about? It's something inspired by her time at fashion school.

Lynda: It's got to be a dress, all of the outfits she's created.

Catherine: You are getting too good at this Lynda, let's take a listen.

Tihara: The object I'm talking about today is an outfit from my graduate fashion collection that I showed at graduate fashion week in 2018.

And I chose to talk about this object because my collection was inspired by the Windrush generation. I think it really encapsulates the whole Windrush story in one outfit.

There is a white shirt that is made from vinyl tablecloth, and it looks like a crochet doily. And then over that, is a vest that's made from raffia, which is dried palm leaves, and it has knitted rib around the neckline, the armhole, and the hem, and it's hand embroidered with raffia again.

The front has the black power fist and the England lion, and the back has a slogan that says, “Black and British,” and the trousers are denim clothes. So, blue denim, and it’s styled with a pair of high knee boots, brown boots and a hat.

When I think about the Windrush generation aesthetic, I think about my granddad and the photos of him when he was younger. So, he wore really tailored suits and he always looked really smart. It was always coordinated, colourful, stylish, that's what I think of.

From the Windrush generation, I'm most inspired by I think their resilience because when they came here, they had to face a lot and to overcome a lot to allow the younger generation to have what we have today.

I feel like Windrush history and British history are taught, like they're separate things when really the story of the Windrush impacts everyone, has helped everyone and it kind of is British history. It doesn't need to be separated into black history or black Caribbean history. And it's important that everyone has an opportunity to learn about it.

After looking at my work, I hope people take away a little bit more knowledge about the Caribbean and that kind of inspiration to look deeper or to learn more about the culture, and to learn more about the Windrush generation that came here, and what they went through, and the culture that they brought here, and how it affects or it's influenced what we experience today.

Lynda: That's so true about the Windrush generation, being smart and stylish. I remember granddad Ross, he always pop styled, it was very dapper.

Catherine: Oh yeah, my dad (granddad Ross as you call him) wouldn't leave the house without wearing a suit. And if I close my eyes now, I can see him looking so suave and sophisticated.

Lynda: Yeah, totally, and Tihara is right about how British and Caribbean history has been taught in schools. It still amazes me that people don't know they're linked.

Catherine: Yes, and very strongly linked. In fact, due to the Transatlantic slave trade, it's such a shame there's still a gap in people's knowledge. As we've learned in this podcast, both cultures have inspired each other in so many different ways.

Lynda: Yes, and when you start looking, it's so obvious. For example, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realise how British aesthetics have benefited from the colourful aesthetics of the Caribbean.

We really brought colour to this nation, which is something Tihara knows all too well. Colourful aesthetics are her specialty. I'm keen to delve more into her inspirations and find out where all the colour comes from.

Hello Tihara, how you doing?

Catherine: Hi.

Tihara: Hello, I'm okay. How are you?

Lynda: Really well.

Catherine: Yeah, it's lovely to meet you.

Tihara: Yeah, you too.

Lynda: Just to start then, love the collection.

Tihara: Thank you.

Lynda: I remember seeing it in the press around 2018, 2019 and it really resonated with me not just from a heritage point of view, but also as an ex-designer myself and fashion editor and stylist, it was a revelation to me.

What was the title of your final collection, and what were you trying to convey through the collection?

Tihara: When I started the collection, it was just more about my own heritage. I started working on the collection 2017, and then it was around, was it the end of 2017 or beginning of 2018 when the Windrush scandal was in the news.

So, that's when I expanded away not just my family and then expanded into looking at the Windrush as a whole. So, then that's when I decided to call the collection, the Windrush collection.

Lynda: And you really made some interesting choices in the types of materials you used for the outfit that you are talking about today. Where did the inspiration for these materials come from? Like the raffia, the vinyl, et cetera?

Tihara: So, with the raffia, that was inspired by the crafts from the Caribbean, like the straw bags and fans, the embroidered souvenirs. And I was looking at the West Indian front room, there's a book by Michael McMillan and he looked into that, all the objects and things that are in the front room.

And one of the other things was the crochet doily type things and the tablecloths, or people covering their sofas and plastic and things like that. So, then that's where the vinyl tablecloths came from.

And then the denim came from the photographs that was taken at the time, like looking at what people wore, and it has a seventies feel so like the flares and that kind of thing.

And also, there's the sofa which was kind of different because if you think about the Caribbean, people not wearing fur, but it was that kind of link that them come into the UK, and it being colder and having to change what they had to wear.

Lynda: Yes, and that was a lot of the women that when they dress as you know, we would like to dress up and look good. So, a lot of the women would save up their pay and buy a bit of sofa. When they're going out to the shibins and what have you.

And I love raffia. I still have my raffia bags that my grandmother gave me, and my father purchased for me back in the Caribbean. Absolutely love them. So, they're in a private place in my house alongside my real expensive designer bags. I have those because they're so precious to me.

But the vinyl tablecloth, I love that, my grandmother until she passed away always had a vinyl tablecloth. Even if she had a pretty embroidered cloth one underneath, she'd have the vinyl on top not to ruin the pretty embroidered one.

And that squeak when he cleaned it, it always had that funny little squeak sound. That’s what I remember. As soon as you said it, that's where my mind took me to it.

Catherine: Another thing that I remember about the Caribbean sofas that were kept in the front room, was that invariably, they were covered in a sort of plastic thing. Either they were bought with it on, or they bought special ones that they covered the set in, so you don't even stain or dirty it or whatever.

You always had a cold bottom and if you move too much, it made a squeaking sound. But yeah, we like to protect the expensive things that we buy.

Lynda: So, when it was really hot, you'd also get stuck on it.

Tihara: Yeah.

Lynda: But at the moment, I've got a really expensive sofa that I purchased recently because I've just moved home, and it's so expensive that no one's allowed to sit on it. So, I don't put plastic on it but I just — everybody knows, they come to my house, sit on the cheap chairs, not on the expensive sofa.

Tihara: Are you allowed to sit on it?

Lynda: Oh, I don't sit on it. I carry on that tradition of sofa's kept for birth, like never touch it.

Catherine: I hear this particular outfit is hanging somewhere quite special. Can you talk to us about that?

Tihara: Yeah, so the outfit I was talking about before was acquired by the Museum of London in 2021.

Lynda: Fantastic.

Tihara: Yeah, the fashion creators from the museum saw my work on Instagram and then contacted me because they were trying to make the collection more representative of London.

So, it's going to be in their new museum, I think it's opening in a few years’ time. So, that's exciting.

Catherine: Well, that's great first. I'm really, really proud of you because curators don't do things like that quite lightly, so you must be some special person.

Tihara: Oh, thank you.

Lynda: And why do you think that particular outfit was the outfit they chose?

Tihara: I feel like it had a little bit from the whole collection. So, it had the vinyl table cut off as the shirt, and then it had the raffia with the vest, and it had the denim, and then it had the statement on the back. So, I feel like it kind of encapsulated the whole thing.

Catherine: Where do you keep the rest of the collection?

Tihara: It's just in my wardrobe.

Catherine: Still an important place. If you just keep them in your wardrobe, are you ever tempted just to dress up in one of them?

Tihara: I think when I first brought the stuff home, I did sometimes just put it on, and then they have a denim jacket in the collection, and I made like a novel one of it, and I did wear it outside once. So, that was nice.

Catherine: It was really good that you wore what you designed, it shows you really believe in it, and you like making statements. Your granddad sounds like a very well-dressed man, but what was his personality like?

Tihara: He was very family-orientated. He used to take me to school and pick me up every day in primary school. So, I spent a lot of time with him.

Catherine: How sweet.

Tihara: Yeah, I'd say he was quite serious with people he didn't know. But he was quite soft with me at least. I think when my mom and her siblings were growing up, I think he was quite strict with them. But by the time he had grandchildren, he was really soft.

Lynda: I think that's a typical Windrush male thing, isn't it?

Catherine: Yeah, you mellow, and you relax, you've done the hard work raising your family and whatever. Now's the time to spoil the grandchildren, so yeah.

Lynda: I hear he had quite the story. Can you talk to us a bit about his life?

Tihara: Yeah, so he was born in Saint Lucia, Vieux Fort, and then he came to the UK when he was about 18 or 19 in 1958. And then when he arrived here, the next day he got a job in boots in Piccadilly Circus.

So, it was really quick. He said how there were so many jobs. It was like you could leave one job and get the next job the next day because there's just so many jobs going at the time.

And then while he was working there, he ended up going to work at a garage nearby. So, he was into that mechanics and things like that, and somebody saw him there and asked if he'd like to do that boxing, because he had the build for boxing. So, then he ended up doing amateur boxing in the UK and in Germany.

And then he met my grandmother. So, then they settled down and had children. So, he kind of gave up the boxing but that's when he continued to do mechanics and things.

Lynda: There’s so many parallels here with your story and ours. My mum came in ‘58, right mum?

Catherine: I did, yeah.

Lynda: So, the same year as your grandfather, and my grandfather (mum's dad) was a boxer, and both small island people. And we're from Nottingham, the home of boots. We could be twins. Oh, yeah, we’re both fashion designers. Oh, my God this is so cool.

I've got one more (not to be annoying). You know what's in the museum? And we're museum.

Catherine: And I've got one, I've got one. I did Google you once we decided to have you on the show and I found out that your grandfather came on the SS Montserrat.

Tihara: Yeah.

Catherine: I did in 1958.

Tihara: Oh, wow. So, you were-

Catherine: I could have seen him on the ship.

Tihara: Yeah.

Catherine: Oh no.

Lynda: Wow.

Tihara: That's so cool.

Lynda: And can I just ask, what are you up to at the moment?

Tihara: So, after I did my collection, I decided to make it into a business. So, I made accessories and now, I make greeting cards and pins and stationary kind of inspired by the Caribbean. So, that's what I'm working on now.

Lynda: That's really interesting. Why did you decide to go that way and not continue designing fashion?

Tihara: I think with the fashion, it's quite difficult to get started with minimal budget, I guess, and develop the collection. So, when I first started, I started with bags because you don't need to worry about sizes and things like that. So, everyone can wear the same size bag.

Lynda: Clever.

Tihara: Yeah, but then because it's like the — so I use the raffia and the hand embroidery, so it's quite time-consuming, which makes it really expensive. So, it's difficult to find the customer.

So, I thought if I started with products that everyone can access and enjoy and then one day, hopefully, I can go back into the fashion world.

Lynda: So, are you making all of the raffia pieces yourself when you're designing the bags?

Tihara: Yeah.

Lynda: Oh, wow. Like remembering your collection, actually, a beautiful wooden handle.

Tihara: Oh yeah.

Lynda: Did you make that yourself?

Tihara: So, that is a laser cut. So, I made the artwork and then sent it to be laser cut, and then I stained it and varnished it and stuff.

Lynda: I loved that. I really did like that.

Catherine: I think that's one of our aspects of style that's very Caribbean. Those handles for the bags, people in the eighties were like … you just like going down a street where black people lived because the different handles and got you excited. Because even the choice of handles and the design tells a story a bit of our culture. I loved it.

Lynda: So, what next for Tihara?

Tihara: At the moment, I've got the greeting cards, which is probably the most easiest product to make, to do designs and get them printed.

Lynda: So, what's on your greetings cards? Is it more pictures, words?

Tihara: It's mostly words, but also some illustrations. So, it's all tropical and Caribbean inspired, some Caribbean words and phrases.

Lynda: So, what sort of words and phrases are on the greeting’s cards?

Tihara: Like “irie,” like the Jamaican, there's like “we're jamming.” There's cards that just have all the island food, so it's just filled with planted and coconut, stuff like that.

Catherine: Well, what I'm impressed with is that you are trying to share Caribbean culture in many different ways. So, different kinds of people will connect with it, and I applaud that because that's what we do as a museum.

We don't just put things on shelves and in glass cabinets. When we put on a display, we try and do that through different things; not least of all our podcast, is another way of reaching our people.

So yeah, again, I say I applaud you for doing it through cards, through accessories and also, through styling as well. So, well done, you.

Tihara: Thank you. The idea was to kind of create something that people could access the Caribbean, that even if you're not from there, that in a nice fun way and then hopefully, that inspires them to look deeper into the stories and things like that.

Because a lot of people don't really know about the Windrush. There's those people that have encountered doing this, that's like, “What's the Windrush?” So, it's kind of nice that that's their first taste of it.

Catherine: And can I say one of the things that was very common in a Caribbean home were things on the wall like tea towels with all our foods and sayings and other things on it as reminders of home.

So, you're continuing in that great tradition, and I look forward to having a look at some of your pieces now.

Lynda: Tihara, we're coming to the end of our conversation, but we always like to end with a saying. Is there a saying that's maybe been passed down from your grandfather, your mother that you'd like to share with us today?

Tihara: My granddad, anyone that he loved, he just referenced like “my Tihara” or like my mum calling her “my Lorna,” so that's quite cute.

Catherine: That's cute. Yeah, very unique. I like that.

Tihara: Yeah.

Lynda: Well, thank you for sharing that with us, and thank you for joining us today for the conversation, really enjoyed that. I'm looking forward to seeing what else you come up with that's creative and good luck with the future.

Catherine: Very much so.

Tihara: Thank you for having me.

Lynda: Oh, how sweet. I really like that saying, “I love you, my Catherine.”

Catherine: I love you too my Lynda.

Lynda: This conversation has been a really nice insight into Tihara's life. Her art is really keeping the spirit of the Windrush generation alive. Keep it up, Tihara, we're immensely proud of you.

Catherine: Definitely. So, that brings us to the end of yet another episode.

[Music Playing]

Lynda: We really hope you're enjoying listening to these episodes as much as we're enjoying making them for you. If you like the show, let us know. You can leave us a review on whatever platform you are listening to us on.

Catherine: Or you could follow us on Twitter, at Museumand or on Instagram at Museumand_.

Lynda: And if you'd like to find out more about the work we do to champion Caribbean stories, visit museumand.org.

Catherine: Next week, we are speaking to Paul Henriques. I won't give away what he'll be talking about just yet, except to say that it's actually more of a ting than an object.

Lynda: Intriguing. But until next time, bye-bye.

Catherine: Bye.

E7 - Ebony, No Ivory

Speakers: Catherine Ross, Lynda-Louise Burrell & Dawn-Maria France

[Music Playing]

Riaz: My mother's Dutch pot.

Jocelyn: A poster, which is a map of Barbados.

Female: My grandmother's suitcase.

Lenny: A flyer with the sound system on it.

Catherine: We all have one of those objects, don't we?

Lynda: Something so sentimental. We've had it for years.

Catherine: And losing or break breaking it is not an option.

Lynda: These objects tell a story about us.

Catherine: About our lives, upbringing and family.

Lynda: And for Caribbeans whose stories are so often left untold, we are bringing these stories to the fore.

Riaz: They're just pots on a surface level, but they're kind of loaded in history.

Lenny: These flyers would've been going back to the 70s, so it brings back great memories.

Catherine: This is Objeks & Tings.

Lynda: A podcast celebrating Caribbeans and their favourite tings. Episode seven, Ebony, no ivory.

Hello and welcome to Objeks & Tings, the show that celebrates 75 years of Caribbeans in the UK through the objects they treasure most. I'm Lynda Burrell.

Catherine: And I'm Catherine Ross, together we are founders of Museumand, a mother-daughter led Caribbean Heritage Museum. And as this year mark's 75 years since the Windrush came to British shores, we are sharing Caribbean stories louder than ever before by starting this podcast.

Lynda: Each week we invite a different person with Caribbean heritage on to the show. We ask them to talk about an object they couldn't live without.

Catherine: And through this object we hear stories of their lives, personalities, and upbringing.

Lynda: And family, don't forget family, mum.

Catherine: Yes, one thing we've been noticing on this podcast is how quickly discussion about an object can lead into discussion about one's nearest and dearest, especially if the object is highly sentimental.

Lynda: And today's no exception. But before we get into our guest’s object and family, probably best to introduce them first. Today's guest is Dawn-Maria France.

[Music Playing]

Dawn: My name's Dawn-Maria, I'm an editor of a news-led magazine called Yorkshire Women's Life.

Catherine: Like us Dawn-Maria loves human interest stories and so being an editor on Yorkshire Women's Life is a job she adores.

Dawn: I'm also a broadcaster and children's author.

So, Yorkshire Women's Life is a news-led magazine. I started with the magazine 23 years ago having said, “Oh, I'll do the magazine, I'll be part of this journey for six months.” But here I am 23 years later, loving every minute of that whole journey and enjoying the ride.

Catherine: As a magazine editor, what do you think Dawn-Maria's object could be? I warn you, it's so easy, if you don't guess it in one, I might have to disown you.

Lynda: The pressure, so I think because Dawn-Maria is a magazine editor, she might be speaking about a magazine today.

Catherine: Well-done, you'll be relieved to hear, I won't be disowning you anytime soon.

Dawn: The object that I'm talking about today is a magazine called Ebony. So, Ebony is an African American intellectual lifestyle magazine. It was founded in 1945 by John H. Johnson of Chicago.

And Johnson wanted a magazine which was a news and photo magazine, very much like Life Magazine, but specifically designed for African American readers.

Ebony Magazine was given to me by my mum because she was sick and tired of the narrative of my school.

So, at my school as a young child from Caribbean parents, I was told that I would not achieve anything. I was told that I was a victim of my colour, and I couldn't achieve my dream to be a writer, broadcaster, or a journalist.

So, my mum went out of her way to find a magazine which showed black people in a very positive light. I think I started looking at the magazine when I was about nine. I remember my mum bringing it, and I remember sitting on the floor just flicking through it thinking, “Wow, these people look like me, these women are glamorous.”

Because at the time, the only images of black women on the telly were of women being subservient, being overweight, being mommy figures. And here were this magazine where women were slim and attractive of all shades, of all colours, with different hair textures, looking absolutely amazing.

And I couldn't stop flicking the pages and thinking, “Wow, they look exactly like me. They're ambitious. One of them wants to be a journalist. Well, I want to be a journalist too, so let me just read about her. What's she doing and how’s she going towards her goal?” It was just absolutely amazing.

The particular edition that I'm talking about today is February 1979. In this issue they had a big splash about the African American Black Achievement Awards and Ebony paid tribute to 55 honourees on a nationwide TV show.

So, it had people like Mohammed Ali, it also had John H. Johnson as well, he was a publisher and editor of Ebony. And I've never seen that in any magazine in my entire life at that point.

And it was great to see Ebony giving a nod to these people and saying, “Well-done you, you are trailblazers. You are doing something positive; you are role models even if you don't realise it.”

The magazines that I saw when I was growing up, particularly Ebony, inspired me to push forward as a writer, fundamentally. I wanted to be a writer since I was about four, and these magazines pushed me forward.

I'm inspired by the way these people write, I'm inspired by the stories they tell, and this is what I want to do for the rest of my life.

The magazine allowed me to get in touch with my Caribbean heritage simply because there were people who looked like me. And in quite a few additions it did have people who were Caribbean, who then went to live in the States. So, there was that connection there.

I was able to connect to their lived experience because my parents left the Caribbean to come to England. And I was able to relate from my own family journey to their journey and read about their life and read about what they went through and how they overcame it and how they went on to achieve things because that was exactly what was happening to my parents.

My mum's efforts to provide me with positive role models have worked. I have become a writer, I have become a journalist, I have won awards. My mum's incredibly proud of me, I'm proud of myself.

I know that I'm my own queen, I straighten my own crown. It's not a question of someone else writing my story, it's about me writing my own life story. And I'm grateful for having Ebony to guide me through that journey.

Lynda: Wow, Dawn-Maria’s mum sounds almost as great as mine.

Catherine: Aw, thank you.

Lynda: She really is a fierce and purposeful woman, isn't she?

Catherine: Yes, she wanted Dawn-Maria to be black and proud and wow, haven't her efforts paid off? I have to say it was a smart move to introduce Dawn-Maria to those American magazines at such a young age.

Americans have always worn their blackness with pride, which is something I think us Brits could learn from.

Lynda: Too true, say it loud, we're black Brits and proud. Pride is a theme I really wanted to explore in this episode and luckily Dawn-Maria has a lot of it.

Hello, Dawn-Maria, how are you doing?

Dawn: I'm fine, thank you, how are you?

Lynda: Really well.

Catherine: Hi, it's Catherine.

Dawn: Hi Catherine.

Lynda: Great, so let's get started. Where are your parents from and how did they meet?

Dawn: So, my dad is originally from St. Martin. He went over to St. Kitts because he wanted to be a photographer and my mum's from Nevis and because my dad was the island photographer, that's how they met.

They met in Nevis when he was going around the island just taking photographs on assignments from various publications that he worked for.

Lynda: Now, I must say, obviously, us being in the museum, we talk to a lot of people, take lots of oral histories, but I've never heard about a photographer back in the Caribbean. Whether they're doing something artistic or for the government. So, this is really exciting and special, and plus we possibly are related.

Dawn: We probably are.

Lynda: After this podcast, we'll look into that.

Dawn: Absolutely, I'd be up for that.

Lynda: But I'll let Catherine, my mum explain a bit more about how we are related.

Catherine: Right, that's because I'm from St. Kitts, both my parents were from St. Kitts, so that's the link. And then we obviously travelled across to Nevis because it's not that far away, just across a bit of water.

Lynda: You could stop across.

Catherine: Right, but after such an exotic place, why did they settle in Yorkshire?

Dawn: Well, what happened was after the second World War, the British government went to the Caribbean to recruit. It was like a graduate recruitment fair, if you are familiar with that.

So, they wanted people from the Caribbean to come back to England and to help build England back after the Second World War, so I think that's what appealed to my parents. And they already had family in Yorkshire, so it was easier to come to someone that was already in Yorkshire to start their life.

Lynda: I've never had anyone describe it like that, but I know a few companies from the UK did go over to certain parts of the Caribbean to recruit for certain industries. So, does that mean that your parents worked for those industries? Which part were they again mum?

Catherine: Well, it was mainly either the British Rail or it was London Transport.

Dawn: My mum actually worked for the local government at the time. And so, she went to one of their recruitment fairs, which was orchestrated by the British government. And my dad was just interested as well, just to come over. He went to the recruitment fair as well. And he was keen to travel because he had the love for photography.

Lynda: Great, great. And what did they do when they reached England?

Dawn: So, my dad, he worked in engineering. My mum went to art college, which was quite difficult at the time, and then she became an art lecturer. And what she did was she took her Caribbean influences and lectured in Caribbean arts, in schools, colleges. And she worked largely with a lot of deprived communities.

Lynda: And what year was all this going on?

Dawn: Oh, she started doing it in the 60s right up to now.

Lynda: That's amazing.

Dawn: Yeah, she's done some installations for the 75th anniversary of Windrush. So, she's been doing art for a very long time.

Lynda: Fantastic. So, in that case then, people have been teaching Caribbean studies in some way in school, in education spaces. So, yeah, we need to see more of that even today because it's feels like it's just starting, but obviously it's been happening since the 60s, which is great to hear.

Catherine: Yeah, she's a real trailblazer in the real sense of the word, I'm amazed and impressed.

Lynda: And what about your grandparents, where were they from?

Dawn: So, my grandparents are originally from Mumbai. And what happened was the British went over to Mumbai and was saying to the people in Mumbai that they could go over to the Caribbean to be indentured servants.

So, indentured servants were like carers for the families, like nannies and so on. So, there were domestic servants.

But when they went to the Caribbean, they were actually tricked. So, instead of being nannies and cooks, they were actually tricked into slavery. By that time, they had no way of going back to Mumbai financially or otherwise.

Catherine: Yeah, there were two kinds of people in the Caribbean islands, the enslaved, and then with the indentured workers who were brought over from Asia. And they were brought there for a period of time, 5 to 10 years. And then they could go back if they wished to, or they could stay there.

And it wasn't slavery with hard work, it was never meant to be like that, just as you said. But what the indentured workers seemed to do was create small businesses, make it commercial as opposed to what Caribbeans were doing, which were cottage industries, just to supplement their income, they started commercial concerns.

Lynda: And going back to the magazine, do you know how your mum discovered it and were they expensive?

Dawn: The magazine was about one pound, 25 at the time, whereas the other magazines, which were largely white magazines for white women were about 25 pence at the time. So, my mum did have to spend extra to buy that magazine.

And that reminds me of when I was young, and my mum used to put my hair in plaits with beads. And because it was largely a white working-class school, I was a bit of a curiosity to the white children because they'd never seen anyone with the hair in plaits before.

But Ebony had a spread of young children with the hair in plaits, and once I saw that I was able to go to school with my hair in plaits and be proud of my hair, my mum's decision and the way I looked, knowing that I could see other children who looked like me in the Ebony Magazine.

Catherine: It’s really true, if you see yourself in, it makes such a difference.

Dawn: One of my favourite memories is that my mum used to save, and she used to take me and the children in the neighbourhood to the theatre. And being my mum, she used to pay for the best seats in the theatre. And she used to get looked on.

People used to look on her as if to say, “How are these black people coming into the theatre?” And my mum used to sort of push her chest out as if to say, “We belong here.”

But it was really great that she used to save up to get the best boxes and to take myself and other children in the neighbourhood to various programs at the theatre.

She took us to the operas, which I hated by the way, she doesn't know that. But she still exposed myself and children in the neighbourhood to opera, to different kinds of theatre and different kind of arts.

And I saw someone recently who said that they really respected my mum for saving as much as she could to take us to the theatre, to take us to the opera, to take us to the art gallery because it was so good to be exposed to the arts. And that's fundamentally something that I really respect her for.

For introducing all of us to a different life, to breaking those stereotypes and not caring that she was looked at when she went into the theatre. Because she had said to all of us, “We belong here, this is a space that we all need to inherit, and this is a space for growth.”

Catherine: Yeah, as I said earlier on, your mum's a real trailblazer, and this story again just confirms that, can't say that enough. And communities are very grateful to people like her who did something different, who'd made sure that our children, our community, were able to establish themselves and show that they were a creative group.

Lynda: We were invited here after all, so there's no space that should be off limits to us. But saying that, Dawn-Maria, your mum sounds a lot like my own, to be honest, strong, courageous character.

Can you describe her for us, her personality, her dress. I know she's got her chest out and she's proud, but what else was she like or is she like?

Dawn: My mum was the type of person and she's still the type of person now, even though she's advanced in her age. She never let any barriers put her off, she went to art school in the 50s, 60s.

It was a very snobby environment. The people at the art school were largely middle class. They didn't have anything to do with this woman from Nevis, this small island woman as they saw her. But she was determined to do her art class.

A lot of the times when she's put on exhibition, she's the only person of colour to have the exhibition. She's very proud of Nevis and Saint Kitts.

If she could get a T-shirt that says I am proud of Nevis and Saint Kitts, she probably would. She's very, very strong and she's just so proud of being a black woman. She has her hair naturally, she doesn't care.

She is unapologetically proud and unapologetically proud as a Caribbean woman. And she knows where she's coming from, and she knows where she's heading. And I love that strength in her. I love that confidence and that tenacity that she's got.

Catherine: How about you, when did you first know you wanted to be a journalist?

Dawn: I think I always knew, I'd watch black and white films with my mum and dad where there'd be white men in America largely, because it was black and white films from America. And they'd have people in the press room with typewriter as it was then. And they'd have their press cards in their caps.

And I remember very earlier on, I must have been about five, pointing to these characters where it was all white men of a certain age in a press room and saying to my mum, “I really want to do that. I really want to be like one of those men, I want to get a press card and so on.”

And I think my mum, she always read to me. I remember sitting on her lap, she'd read to me, I'd read to her. My mum went out of her way to get empty books where I could write. So, there'd be pages and pages of blank sheets where I could just express myself.

And my mum would always encourage me to read and write. The house my dad said was like a library. He said nobody in the neighbourhood had as many books as me. But when I was nine, my mum took me back to Saint Kitts.

So, I went to see my great-great uncle Joseph Nathaniel France, and he was a journalist, and he was also a politician. So, my mum had thought, “Well if Dawn-Maria really wants to be a journalist, let me take her to someone in the family who's doing it.”

So, I remember sitting with this great man, who was telling me, “Yes, I think you've got the making of a journalist,” because my nine-year-old self wouldn't stop asking this man questions and so on.

And he was like, “Yes,” he said to my mum, “She's got what it takes, she's asking questions, she's clearly bright, encourage her down that route.” And that's when I knew. I knew from about five that I wanted to write.

My aunt who's no longer with us, said that when I was five, she corrected some of my grammar, and she said the look that my five-year-old self gave her as if to say, “Don't you dare touch my words.”

Lynda: Do you think that because you wanted to be a journalist, a writer from such a young age, is that why you also wanted to write children's books?

Dawn: I think when I was growing up, my mum went out of her way like the detective she is, and she got some children's books from Nevis. But when the books came, instead of being about the Caribbean, they were about America, I think my mum was put out.

And I remember thinking, I really want to write children's books because I used to be a youth worker and when I was a youth worker, I worked in some of the poorest areas, this is before I became a journalist.

And I always looked for really positive books for my children that were in my charge. And I couldn't find any books that said, “Yes, it's okay to be a working class, it's okay to be a strong little girl,” there was none of those books.

The books that were on offer, they were largely middle-class books. And I really had that seed of I want to write a children's book where the characters is a strong northern little girl who's unapologetically strong, who knows her own mind, who has her own thoughts. And so, I set about doing that.

It took me years because I did the research and I worked with lots of children's organisations and parents to make sure that I got the right tone of the books.

And it was something I wanted to do from very young and also reinforce as a youth worker because there's not many books where their main characters are strong little girl and there's not many books for children that are northern as well.

As a writer I felt it was something that I wanted to pursue. And I was glad when the books got published because it felt like I'd achieved something that I'd longed to do for a very long time.

Lynda: That’s fantastic, congratulations to you.

Catherine: Yeah, you shared with us a lot of your mother's love and care and support during your life, but also of your extended family. And I think although we are hearing about that, I think there's a general message that you are sending out that parents and our extended family need to support our young people.

If they think we can, we will. Because we can always go back to them, and they will encourage us to keep going forward.

Lynda: So, we always like to end the show with a saying. Do you have one that your mum has passed down to you or just a favourite saying that you can share with us today?

Dawn: There's one that both myself and my mum likes. I'll paraphrase it, it was by Gandhi and it's, I will not let anyone with dirty feet walk in my head.

Lynda: I love that.

Catherine: Yeah, not heard that one before, but it’s one I'll be using.

Lynda: And to make it more Caribbean, I would say, “Don't let yuh dirty foot touch me head.”

Dawn: Yeah, I agree, I second that.

Lynda: Sorry, Gandhi. Thank you so much Dawn-Maria, it was lovely to meet you. I'm actually looking forward to meeting your mum. So, we have to set up a St. Kitts and Nevis day when we all can get together.

Dawn: Oh yeah.

Lynda: So, until we next see you, bye-bye.

Catherine: Bye.

Dawn: Thanks for having me again, bye, take care.

Lynda: A big thank you to Dawn-Maria's mum for reminding me not to let people with dirty feet walk in my head.

Catherine: Yes, some sage advice there, and what a lovely episode this has been. I feel so empowered and proud to be who I am.

[Music Playing]

Lynda: Well, you should be, I think you're great. We all need to acknowledge those who empower and support us.

Catherine: Very true. So, that's nearly it from us, except to say do get in touch if you've been listening.

Lynda: You can find us at Museumand on Twitter and at Museumand_ on Instagram.

Catherine: We'll be back next week when we'll be speaking to fashion designer Tihara Smith. We'll find out about the creative way she celebrates the Windrush generation.

Lynda: Yes, and if you're like me, a fashion lover, this episode's for you, but until then, bye-bye.

Catherine: Bye.

E6 - A Ticket into Existence

Speakers: Catherine Ross, Lynda-Louise Burrell, & Demi Bailey-Paul

[Music Playing]

Riaz: My mother's Dutch pot.

Jocelyn: A poster, which is a map of Barbados.

Female: My grandmother's suitcase.

Lenny: A flyer with a sound system on it.

Catherine: We all have one of those objects, don't we?

Lynda: Something so sentimental, we've had it for years.

Catherine: And losing or breaking it is not an option.

Lynda: These objects tell a story about us.

Catherine: About our lives, upbringing, and family.

Lynda: And for Caribbeans whose stories are so often left untold, we are bringing these stories to the fore.

Riaz: They're just pots on a surface level, but they're kind of loaded in history.

Lenny: These flyers would've been going back to the seventies, so it brings back great memories.

Catherine: This is Objeks & Tings,

Lynda: A podcast celebrating Caribbeans and their favourite tings.

Catherine: Episode six, “A ticket into existence.”

Lynda: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Objeks & Tings. I'm Lynda Burrell, the daughter of …

Catherine: Me, Catherine Ross, and together, we are the National Caribbean Heritage Museum, Museumand.

Lynda: Museumand is on a mission to share Caribbean stories throughout the UK with our exhibitions. And this year, we're celebrating 75 years of the Windrush coming to British shores by launching this podcast.

Catherine: Yes, we Caribbeans have done a lot for the UK, whether that's helping to rebuild it after the second World War or bringing vibrancy and colour with our music, food, and culture. And this is the podcast that celebrates that.

Lynda: And because we're museum owners, we know only too well the power of objects to elicit memories. So, each week, we speak to a different person about a different object that speaks to their Caribbean roots in one way or another.

And then we use these objects as a springboard to talk about their life more generally.

Catherine: Yes, it's amazing what you can learn about someone from an object.

Lynda: Or a ting.

So, this week we have Demi Bailey-Paul on the show.

Demi: So, my name's Demi, and I'm a multifaceted journalist who loves audio, loves music, and loves podcasts.

Lynda: Demi's got grandparents from all across the Caribbean. Her dad's parents are from Dominica and St. Lucia. And her mum's parents — well, I'll let her explain.

Demi: My grandpa is from a small town in Jamaica called St. Ann's. And then my nan, so she's from an island in the Caribbean called Saint Kitts and Nevis.

It's kind of funny because Jamaican people have this rivalry thing with different islands. Because their island is the biggest, they always look down on small island people, and they call them small island. So, it's like, “Yuh man, I met a small island girl,” and all these things like that.

Catherine: You know, being from Saint Kitts, I'm a small island girl too.

Lynda: And as you are from Saint Kitts and daddy was from Jamaica, does that make me a medium island girl?

Catherine: You can be whatever you want to be, Lynda.

Lynda: So, normally, this is a part where you make me guess what our guest’s object would be, but the tables have turned, and this week, I'm going to get you to guess what our guest’s object is, and see how you like it.

Catherine: Okay, hit me.

Lynda: As part of our job, this is something we have to collect on a daily basis.

Catherine: Paperwork.

Lynda: Not quite, but close.

Catherine: Receipts.

Lynda: Got it, into.

Catherine: Not bad for the first time.

Lynda: But this is a very particular receipt, so I'll let Demi explain.

Demi: The object I have chosen today is the receipt of the ticket from the boat that my grandpa took from Jamaica to come to London for the first time during the Windrush in the 1960s.

The receipt is really important to me because I look at it as almost the starting point of the reason why I even exist and the reason why my mum's also here. And it's the journey of my life as a second-generation Caribbean in London.

So, the receipt is not like your normal receipt at all, it's completely different. It's probably like one third of an A4 piece of paper. The colour has turned a little bit into a yellowish colour. So, at the top of it, it says tentative departure date on the 18th of April 1961.

And then as you go further down on the receipt, it says received from Victor Bailey, (and Victor Bailey is my grandpa's name) for the sum of £75 and 12 shillings and 0 pence. So, that was the price of the ticket, and it has a stamp on it to validate the ticket and then also, a signature at the bottom.

Yeah, £75 at the time was really, really expensive. It's almost like one of those things that you would save up for probably months and months and months to get that sum of money and you're paying for your life to change, like a one-way ticket for your life to change.

And from that, my grandpa coming over to this country, he was able to meet my grandma. My nan was really well-educated and my grandpa, the completely opposite. So, my nan went to a private school, so she's Scottish and black. So, it was quite a rare thing back in the days to be “mixed race.”

And my grandpa, he was a little bit rough back then, he's from the country and he's from Jamaica, and he has no skill other than being a carpenter. And my nan is really high class, and if they both hadn't come to this country then, my mum wouldn't have been made, and then I wouldn't have been made. So, yeah, it's quite the story.

So, my grandpa, he's really, really confident and he had a lot of friends. He was really, really popular. He'd always be the life of the party. He's got a gold tooth. I feel like every Jamaican's got a gold tooth, it's just a thing.

So, he's got a gold tooth and he's got a really bellowing laugh that is really contagious. It's probably one of the funniest laughs I've actually heard. And when he laughs, he rolls back in his chair and he's doing all of this head shaking and he's definitely a comedian.

He loves to make people laugh. He really enjoys making people laugh. And I think that's also where I get my humour from. And in terms of how he dresses, what my grandpa wears is definitely even till today's quintessential Windrush attire to a T, with the felt hat, the top hat, and the waistcoat and the trousers, and the proper shoes. That’s how you present yourself if you’re Jamaican.

They have a lot of pride in what they wear, and they have a lot of pride in being Jamaican. It's really important to them.

I feel really grateful that my grandpa held onto this because he's 84 now, and he came to this country when he was 21, 22. And the fact that he still has it, I feel really grateful to be able to look at this and it's reminds me of my culture.

And when I look at it, I have a lot of emotions and it makes me think about my culture and how far we've come and what a long journey it's been for us to even be here and coexist in the same space as everybody else.

Catherine: Wow, a receipt, I can't believe Demi's grandad has still got it. I love objects from the past in all shapes and sizes, but there is something about papers and documents that really speaks to me. Maybe it’s the old-fashioned penmanship.

As a former teacher, I love going back in time and reading documents and letters where people really knew how to write.

Lynda: I know what you mean, and I love this idea of this receipt being part of the reason Demi exists. With her granddad meeting her grandma in the UK, she's literally holding her ticket into existence in her hands.

It's staggering when you think about it. We caught up with Demi to find out more.

Hi yuh, hi Demi.

Demi: Hi.

Lynda: I have to ask you, I have to ask you first, is it Demi or Deme?

Demi: So, it is actually pronounced Demi because I'm named after Demi Moore the actress, who my mum was a massive fan of in the eighties.

Lynda: Me too.

Demi: But over time, I've just said to everybody who I meet in person, that it’s actually Demi. Just because I feel like Deme never actually sticks with people. So, family is Demi, my friend is Demi.

Lynda: But if you got everybody to listen to our podcast, then you can teach them how to say your name properly.

Demi: Exactly, I feel like it's actually a bit of a secret, I don't think my friends actually know that it's actually Demi, so yeah.

Catherine: Alright, this receipt, it's such a treasure, I can't believe your granddad still has it. Can you talk us through how you found it?

Demi: Yes, absolutely. So, I was telling him that I was going to be doing this podcast and I feel like he felt a bit excited, like it's got something to do. Like he's retired now, so this is a bit exciting for him.

And I told him, and I was thinking, what can he give me that it's going to be of significance that I can bring to this podcast? And he was like, “Yuh man, yuh man, me still have a receipt from when we did come over.” And I was like, “Wait, really?” He was like, “Yuh man, yuh man, when you're ready, come take it.”

Lynda: Can I ask actually, where did your granddad find it? Where was it in the house?

Demi: I didn't actually ask him where he found it, but he's just one of those people who has everything, but he will know where it is. Like that old thing where if you're looking for something, your parents would have it under the bed? He is that sort of person.

Lynda: That’s exactly it. I was wondering if he kept it in his grip or in his glass cabinet. I wondered where it would be.

Demi: Yeah, because we have brown cabinets. I feel like it's a very Caribbean thing to have brown, sort of glossy cabinets with just every document you've ever had. You never throw things away just in case. So, I think it was probably in there.

Lynda: Very good. So, the receipt says the price of the ticket was £75. Now, that doesn't sound like much in today's standards, but actually, when you look into inflation, that's the equivalent of about, I was looking this up — I think it was about £1,700 today. It's a lot of money.

Demi: It is a lot of money. And when he said it was £75, I was like, “Oh wait, only £75,” I'm thinking that's really cheap. I was thinking that's a bargain in today's world.

And then when I was speaking to him about the cost of it, he said that it was really, really expensive to even collect that money at the time, was quite a big thing back then.

Lynda: Yeah, I can imagine. And how did he raise the funds?

Demi: So, he said that there are a number of ways that people from his parish, because he's from St. Ann's, which is in the country in Jamaica. So, there's a few things that people would do.

So, he, for example, his stepdad helped him raise the money with what people would call pardners, which is something I learned very recently. I had no idea about it.

Which is a group of men in your circle, your trusty circle that you trust with your money, and they deal with anything financial. And every time you get your salary, you would put a bit into the pardner, and they'd help it go towards things that you needed. So, a bit of that.

And then he said some other people on his island would sell some land or sell their animals and stuff like that. So, yeah, it's a number of ways, but I think it's over months that they would raise the money to get this ticket.

Lynda: That’s really interesting actually. And just to let you know, actually it wasn't just men that did pardner, it was actually women that started it. I’ll let my mum come in here with a little bit about pardner.

Catherine: Yeah, it is a very popular community savings scheme. But what I like about it as a historian, it's come all the way from Africa.

So, we brought it with us when we were enslaved and taken to the Caribbean, and it's even used here in the UK. That way, we can save up for the big things in life or just the fun things in life as well. You know, all those cruises we go on.

Lynda: I do pardner actually, and I'm not sure if I'm going to-

Demi: Oh, do you?

Lynda: Yeah, I still do it. And I'm not sure if I'm going to go back to the Caribbean holiday next year or buy a handbag. I'm weighing it out up.

Demi: Decisions … decisions.

Catherine: Get an idea of how much she spends on handbags then.

Lynda: Priorities.

Demi: Oh God.

Catherine: But in 1948, when the original or the first lot of the Windrush generation came over, the cost of the ticket was £28 and 10 shillings. So, by the time your granddad came, and it was 75.

Demi: That's mad.

Catherine: Twice, isn't it?

Lynda: What? It went up a lot, man, in that time.

Catherine: There must be a story.

Demi: Yeah, I don’t know why it jumped to that amount. I mean, to be fair, I can probably make a logical guess; more people wanted to come, so they upped the price. That's sort of how it goes, doesn't it?

Lynda: That’s a nice way of saying it, or maybe they didn't really want us here, so they put the price up so well.

Demi: Wow, that as well. Well, we all know the story there.

Catherine: Did your granddad ever go back to Jamaica?

Demi: Yeah, he's been back twice, and so he went back once because he was going to build a house apparently. So, he went back to do that, and I think also just to see what work there was in Jamaica. And then he came back, and then he went back again.

And then he said that when he came back from the second time, he said he would never go back again.

Lynda: Really?

Demi: Yeah, he said that it's almost like people didn't view him as Jamaican anymore when he came back. I think there was a lot of jealousy there and just ignorance and people would call him Englishman, call him the Englishman, the Englishman.

And apparently, his accent got weaker and all these things. So, I felt like he felt a bit shunned by his own people. So, didn't really have a place to go back to in Jamaica and people would steal from him as well.

Lynda: Yeah, that happens a lot, doesn't it?

Catherine: And that was so hard really because a lot of us came only for a period of time, and then we were going to go back home, and build houses and start businesses and so on. But it's funny how people's attitudes can change in 5 to 10 years.

Demi: Absolutely, it's really interesting.

Catherine: And that your granddad managed to lose a little bit of his accent.

Demi: Apparently, even though till this day, I still can't really understand. So, I'm just thinking, well how strong is it meant to be? Because sometimes, I catch myself saying, what? Do you know what I mean?

Catherine: And when I try to speak Patwa, let's say, people laugh at me and say, “Don't try, it doesn't sound right,” it sounds very English when I say words, so yeah.

Lynda: But obviously, you came when you were seven, your accent would've definitely changed in that time, you know.

Catherine: Yeah, it did. Both of my parents are from Saint Kitts and-

Demi: Oh, my nan's from Saint Kitts.

Catherine: Best Island, best Island.

Lynda: That's not true. Mum, you are from Saint Kitts, you came at seven.

Catherine: And I'm from Saint Kitts too, I'm flying the flag for Saint Kitts.

Demi: Oh, I love that. I love it, we have to support the full island.

Catherine: Oh, well done, I like you. But then we moved to the Midlands in Nottingham. And as Lynda was saying, I was seven when I arrived, so it was quicker for a child to pick up the local accent.

But then when I'm with my community and I get teased because I just can't speak Patwa. Do you know what I mean?

Lynda: I love those because obviously before the museum, you worked a lot with the Windrush generation, and I love how they can go from speaking pure Patwa into the local dialect wherever they live.

So, going from Patwa into local Nottingham slang, it's amazing. All in the same sentence, you get every major-

Demi: I know, it's incredible.

Lynda: So, have you ever been to the Caribbean yourself?

Demi: I've actually never been. That's everyone's reaction when I tell them.

Lynda: Especially being Kittitian because my dad was Jamaican and obviously my mum's from Saint Kitts. Saint Kitts is … all the Caribbean's beautiful. But Saint Kitts is so small, it's like a jewel, it's beautiful. You can get around the whole island in-

Demi: A day.

Lynda: Yeah, you can. How'd you know that?

Demi: My mum told me.

Lynda: That's what my grandmother did when she was having mum. She walked around the whole island, and then she had-

Catherine: Labour pains. I could be born anywhere on the island as she travelled with me.

Demi: Exactly, it's so small and so sacred.

Lynda: Beautiful.

Demi: But yeah, I've never been.

Lynda: Well, because I'm saving with my pardner. You start saving with your pardner and we can go together next year.

Demi: Actually, I'd love to, I'd love to go to all of the islands I'm from, like I would really love to go.

Catherine: I wanted to tease you or to alert you. You know your granddad’s called an Englishman. Well, don't do what we did when I went back after 30 years of being in Britain, I then decided my children were old enough for me to take them back. So, we went to Saint Kitts.

But I was doing some research at the time. I got the grant to go and do some history research, so I took my children. And because I was there to do meetings and be officious and whatever, I used to be walking fast minding my own business. People would shout, “English, English,” because I was walking.

Lynda: Or slow down, slow down.

Catherine: Slow down.

Lynda: Slow down

Catherine: Slow down, you don’t walk that fast.

Demi: Wait what?

Lynda: Just walking.

Demi: I've never heard of that before.

Lynda: Yeah, you have to walk slow and take your time.

Demi: Okay.

Catherine: You get there if you get there, whatever. So, don't give yourself away, just walk slowly.

Demi: Okay, yeah. I feel like my grandpa would give me a survival or some sort of survival list of what to do and what not to do if I was to ever go.

Catherine: Can you tell me a little bit about why your granddad came to the UK?

Demi: So, I think he came for work, he was a carpenter. So, obviously, when the whole Windrush movement came about, obviously they got invited to the country, and they were under British War at the time.

So, he got invited. So, he accepted the invitation, I think that was probably the reason why.

And I can only imagine when you're from Jamaica and you haven't been anywhere else, and then you get a call to say, “Come into Britain,” it's probably an amazing … all the feelings you must feel, all the excitement.

So, it's a bit of an adventure. And I think he must have been 21 or 22 at the time. So, if you have never left your country and been asked to come across seas to England, it's like all these things at once an adventure, work and new experience.

Lynda: Well, the streets will be paved with gold, there's money to be made.

Demi: You know what I mean? It's almost like I can imagine it being like the Wizard of Oz. You're following that yellow brick road to this-

Catherine: Land of opportunity and why wouldn’t you.

Demi: Land of opportunity and the embolden green city of — like that sort of fantasy that you have in your head as well. I can imagine him thinking and other people.

Catherine: Well, if you start from people hearing about the invitation and then getting together to plan. We're going to sell this piece of land, we're going to sell these animals, we're going to save in a pardner — the whole community or people around you would be mobilised to let one of their number at least go and experience this land of opportunity.

And I was surprised that it was on the ship that people experience other Caribbean islands. So, for instance, you'd never met … a Kittitian, perhaps had never met a Trinidadian or a Guyanese or whatever. But on the ship, there was all those sorts of relationships to be made and sharing of information.

Demi: Absolutely, and that's how the community I would think would start is on that ship. Because you're all going to one destination, maybe not the same goal, but you all have similar aspirations of what you want to achieve out of it.

And my grandpa said that they did make a lot of stops along the way before coming to England. So, you're sort of building your community from then even before you come off the boat.

Lynda: Definitely, and did he tell you any stories about his first time on the ship and his first experiences? Because one thing my mum always says about the first time you had sliced bread and an apple.

Catherine: Yeah, because in the Caribbean, most of our fruits you have to peel. So, came on the ship and people were itching the skin. I thought they were all primitive, really. I thought, “Eh, we didn't do that in Saint Kitts.

Demi: Yeah, Saint Kitts actually, I don't know if it's just my nan, but I don’t know, there's a lot of education in Saint Kitts. My nan went to a private school, her education was all taught by white English people. Like her education in Saint Kitts.

Lynda: You went to one, didn't you?

Catherine: Yeah, I went to private school from the age of four. So, by the time I came to England, I was streaks ahead of the-

Demi: Yeah, that was like my nan.

Catherine: Local children.

Demi: My nan is very premium ... like even when we're going to the street to get groceries, she's in heels and a hat, and a handbag.

Catherine: Oh, my kind of person.

Lynda: But you’re not that much of a Kittitian, you ain’t that posh.

Demi: I feel like you guys would've been friends. But she's very about her business.

Lynda: You describe yourself as a multifaceted journalist who loves audio, loves music, and loves podcasts. Did you get that from your grandfather and being of Caribbean descent, did that play a hand in what you do today?

Demi: You know what, I would say that my love of probably telling stories — because when it comes to friendship group, I would probably say I'm quite flamboyant and I'm the best at impersonations and doing anyone's accent, giving me any accent, I can do it.

And I would say that's because I'm an only child as well, in a family where my mum is one of five siblings, and with my grandparents. So, it's almost like I've been raised as the youngest kid in a way, it's a very interesting dynamic.

So, I've always been the youngest in the room all the time at any time. And sometimes, not that they would forget I'm a kid, but sometimes, you know how Caribbeans are, when you get a bit of a drink Danny, you sort of forget and you know they-

Lynda: Big people business.

Demi: Yeah, big people business. So, I'm around big people business from a very young age and people would just tell stories and I would be so enamoured by it. And I felt like I've really absorbed that way of telling stories.

And my grandpa's very, very animated and when he's telling the story, he will get up and he'll go from one end of the room to the other to tell the story and have people in stitches. And I feel like that's been passed down to me.

Lynda: That's so funny, because one thing a Caribbean can do, we can tell a story and your description of your granddad reminded of my dad, because he was the funniest person.

He'll get up, even if you are annoyed with him for something, then he'll tell you a story and it's like, “Oh daddy, stop making me laugh,” it's that sort of thing. And the laughter we have, we can laugh, can't we really, well. Like belly laugh, you know.

Demi: Yeah.

Lynda: But you're talking about your mum education. What does your mum do?

Demi: So, she's a psychotherapist.

Lynda: Oh, wonderful.

Demi: So, it was just me and her for a while, just us two. And while she was raising me, she was also studying. So, she did her degree at Birkbeck University, and at the Open University whilst having a full-time job, whilst still raising me.

And then when I was 19, going into my second year of uni, she went to move to New York to do her masters at NYU to become a psychotherapist. So, yeah, that's my mum.

And I think because I am her only child and because I know I'm her only child, it's like I have to do well in life. I don't know, that's just something I just hold to myself.

Lynda: That must be wonderful for your granddad as well. You know, came here as a carpenter, had five kids, worked very hard and your mum does super well for herself, and you are doing super well. So, he is probably sitting back now and going, wow.

Demi: Yeah.

Lynda: £75 was well spent.

Demi: It's true, that's the thing. And when you are buying that ticket, you don't know what it's going to lead to. It can lead to great things.

Lynda: Fantastic. So, we're getting to the end of the conversation now, and we always like to end the show with a saying. Now, it can be something that was passed down from your grandfather or grandmother or just a saying that you remember from childhood.

Demi: So, the saying that my mum's always said to me, and that stuck with me throughout my life is that you can be anything you want to be as long as you put your mind to it.

Lynda: She's so right. And I know we're wrapping up, but that's what my mum said to me. There's nothing you can't do or can't be. Just work hard, work towards your goal, and it will come true.

Demi: Thank you so much, guys, for having me, I've really had a great time.

Lynda: Thank you.

Catherine: Thank you.

Lynda: Such a lovely sentiment there to end the show on. Take advice from Demi’s mum everybody; you can be anything you want to be.

Catherine: Yes, and it seems like it served Demi well, because what an amazing person she is. If you are listening, Demi’s mum, you did good.

[Music Playing]

Lynda: So, that's the end of today's podcast. If you'd like to know more about the work we do to share stories like Demi’s, please visit museumand.org.

Catherine: Next week, we'll be speaking to magazine editor, Dawn-Maria France, about an object that reflects her profession perfectly.

Lynda: But until then, bye-bye.

Catherine: Bye.

E5 - Through the Pinhole

Speakers: Catherine Ross, Lynda-Louise Burrell & Wendy Leocque

[Music Playing]

Riaz: My mother's Dutch pot.

Jocelyn: A poster, which is a map of Barbados.

Female: My grandmother’s suitcase.

Lenny: A flyer with the sound system on it.

Catherine: We all have one of those objects, don't we?

Lynda: Something so sentimental. We've had it for years.

Catherine: And losing or breaking it is not an option.

Lynda: These objects tell a story about us.

Catherine: About our lives, upbringing and family.

Lynda: And for Caribbeans whose stories are often left untold, we are bringing these stories to the fore.

Riaz: They're just pots on a surface level, but they're kind of loaded in history.

Lenny: These flyers would've been going back to the 70s, so it brings back great memories.

Catherine: This is Objeks & Tings.

Lynda: A podcast celebrating Caribbeans and my favourite tings. Episode five through the pinhole.

Catherine: Hello and welcome to another episode of Objeks & Tings, the show celebrating 75 years of the Windrush generation through the objects they cherish most.

Lynda: Which basically means we hear from a different guest per episode about an object that speaks to their Caribbean heritage in one way or another.

Catherine: So far, we've heard about Dutch pots, sound systems, photographs and maps, but I have to say this week our guest is talking about an item, I think summarises the Windrush generation more than anything else, but more on that in a bit.

Lynda: Yes, because we should probably introduce ourselves first. I'm Lynda Burrell, your daughter and the creative director of the National Caribbean Heritage Museum, Museumand.

Catherine: And I am Catherine Ross, your mother and the founder, director of Museumand. Museumand is a museum without walls that shares and spread stories of Caribbeans and Caribbean culture throughout the UK.

Lynda: Yes, and if you are wondering what a museum without walls is, let me tell you, we don't have a building, we're building this, but we do have a wonderful collection and amazing exhibitions, which we take around the country to different places and spaces and share Caribbean history and heritage.

For example, we actually had a great exhibition over the Christmas period in the Caribbean Takeaway, it's an edible exhibition.

So, people came from actually, not just around Nottingham but across the UK, once they heard about it and they tried the sorts of food that the enslaved ate over Christmas. So, that was very interesting.

A bit like a Bushtucker Trial, because some of the foods were terrible. Majority of them were delicious though, and we're still eating that sort of food now today.

Catherine: And another exciting exhibition was the one that the public called Stories in a Suitcase. And it was all about the things that the Windrush generation brought with them to the UK. And it was presented in different sizes and different types of suitcases.

And actually, that exhibition is quite relevant to today's episode, but I'm not going to give anything away quite yet.

Lynda: But in summary Museumand loves making engaging content that anyone anywhere can enjoy. So, a podcast is obviously the best next step for us.

Catherine: So, now everybody knows who we are, shall we hear from today's guest?

Lynda: Yeah, go on then.

Wendy: Hello, my name is Wendy Leocque. I'm a photographic artist from Bristol, or now based in Bristol. I'm originally from Birmingham. Well, actually I always say Birmingham, but it's better known as the Midlands because I grew up in a place called Smethwick.

Lynda: Did she just say Smethwick? I've never heard of it.

Wendy: Smethwick, yeah. Some people might remember Smethwick because Malcolm X came to Smethwick when he heard about the race division and wars going on around Smethwick and came to lend his support really behind the Asian and Caribbean community.

Catherine: So, knowing what I've already told you about this object, that it's a quintessential Windrush item, can you guess what it might be, Lynda?

Lynda: Yes, I can this time I think, a suitcase.

Catherine: Finally, you got it in one. You are getting better at this Lynda, I'm proud of you. Wendy, over to you.

Wendy: My object is my grandmother's suitcase known as a grip in the Caribbean community. So, it's the one object that she came over with in 1956. And this object just carried all her possessions.

It's special to me because it's an object that my grandmother held. I feel like I can imagine her stepping off that ship in her 20s all by herself, she must have been terrified. And that's the object she kind of started her life from.

[Music Playing]

When I thought about what I was going to do with it as a photographer, I just spent a while photographing it. And I think from that I just decided I wanted to kind of use it as something that was more than just an object that I held onto.

So, I eventually turned the suitcase into a pinhole camera and used it to take photographs of Windrush artefacts.

Pinhole photography is a slow process, so there's times where I'm kind of really on a roll with it. But even being on a roll will take sort of a week to do one image, let's say, because then I load that camera with 1216 paper.

I take the camera with me to Birmingham; I expose the paper inside the camera for about anything between 3 minutes to 35 minutes. I bring it back to Bristol, I get into a dark room, and I develop that image. So, it's a really slow process.

So, the things that I photograph with this camera are things that connect me to my grandmother.

And I remember for the first image, I wanted to take a shot of her bedroom. It's where she spent a lot of her time, especially later on when she became quite ill. And I walked in there, I didn't know how I was going to set the camera up. I didn't know, what angle I wanted to get from it.

I just kind of felt it and went with it. And I ended up propping the camera in the same position that she used to sit in bed.

I remember walking into the bedroom, and I'd see her sitting there and a big smile would appear on her face as I came around the corner. I propped the camera up in the same up seated position facing the window, so that was the view that she always had.

And took about, I think it was like a 27-minute exposure, I bought the camera back with me to Bristol and developed it.

And I remember thinking, I really hope that somethings come out, because it could be completely overexposed, you could get nothing on there. So, I was just really hoping that I got something.

And for that first image, for me it was perfection because when I look at the image, it was just the way I'd positioned the camera. So, it's tilted back slightly. So, you get this tunnelling effect towards the window and the dark room turns into this bright light at the end.

And I think that most people that have seen that image think that that's really significant. This travelling towards this light, I don't think I could have done a better job.

Lynda: Wow, so much to unpack there, excuse the pump.

Catherine: Yes, I just love it when people repurpose objects. If it's not being used anymore, why not change it into something that will be. Fixing things and repurposing them is something you see the Windrush generation do a lot.

So, it's nice to see that Wendy's continuing that tradition.

Lynda: I have to admit, when I hear about people messing with antiques and antiquey items, I'm like, “No, please don't do that, there are too facts are precious, leave them as they are.” But actually, hearing about Wendy and what she's doing, it has my seal of approval.

There's something quite poetic about a Windrush item being repurposed to take pictures of other Windrush items. I think it's pretty ingenious and I can't wait to hear more about the objects that have crossed her and her camera's path.

Hello Wendy.

Wendy: Hello.

Lynda: I know that you got in touch with us after we did a social media call out, and we just wanted to know about your object.

Wendy: I got in touch because I wanted to contribute my grandmother's grip, a suitcase, which I've now turned into a pinhole camera and I'm using to photograph, I would say Windrush artefacts, things that are related to how I see the Windrush.

Lynda: How do you identify those things? Is it just things that you remember from your childhood?

Wendy: I guess so. And I think it's things that I relate to my grandmother, and it's turned into a nice little project with my mom as well.

So, in talking to my mom about the things that I wanted to photograph, she was kind of saying to me, “Oh, you should photograph this or that because it kind of relates to Windrush.” Or it's something that she remembers as well from speaking to my grandmother.

So, the five-year trunk, for example, when people came over from the Caribbean, they only had a plan to stay in the UK for five years. They wanted to save as much as they could and then return home.

And the trunk was something that they kind of like wanted to collect all their possessions. And that's still standing in the corner of my grandmother's bedroom now, and I photograph that also.

Another item I photographed was the trilby. Because you remember all those images that you saw of people walking down the gangplank really smartly dressed?

Lynda: Definitely, yes.

Wendy: And the trilby was one of those things that stood out to me, not only because of that enduring image, but because my grandmother loved to rock a trilby. And I think she enjoyed wearing trilbies because it reminded her of her dad. To my grandmother's funeral, we all wore trilbies.

Lynda: Oh, so touching, I love that.

Wendy: Yeah. So, there were those little things that I kind of remembered or my mum reminded me of. The Caribbean Front Room was another one, because obviously everybody in the Caribbean will know how sacred the front room is.

Lynda: Wrapped in plastic.

Wendy: Yes. So, the sofas are wrapped in plastic. You can't sit on anything; you can't go in there for very long unless you're entertaining guests.

And a funny thing was, I'd gone back to my grandparent’s house actually, and I said to my granddad, because I always know where the key is left. But for this occasion, I couldn't find the key.

So, I was kind of like to my granddad, “Oh, can I have the key for the front room?” And he put his hand in his trouser pocket and handed me the key. I just laughed to myself because I was kind of like, “What are you keeping locked away in this front room?” There's nothing in there anymore.

It's just like that whole sort of, it's such a precious room, no one can go in there. But yeah, so I ended up taking the key, opening the room up and photographing that as well.

And then it's just kind of carried on from there really. I've started to go a little bit more abstract with my images, so everyone will remember the items that maybe stood in the Caribbean front room or the household. So, do you remember that glass colourful fish?

Lynda: Oh yes, we've got quite a number of those in the museum.

Wendy: So, yeah, exactly. So, I kind of did an abstract version of that. So, when you look at it initially, the way that I shut it, you can't tell that it's the fish. So, I was kind of like moving into this more abstract sort of remembering or recalling or sort of almost sort of like dream memory sequences, if you know what I mean.

So, I'm moving into a bit more abstract kind of images with the suitcase.

Lynda: I love that.

Wendy: Aw, thank you.

Lynda: Even though we have a number of those glass fish for the museum, my mother's still like … I can see her looking at me when I'm holding it as if like, “Don't drop it, don't drop it.”

Wendy: I know, yeah.

Catherine: I'm from St. Kitts and I never heard of the word grip, until I married a Jamaican. So, I know the word grip means suitcase, we just simply called it a suitcase.

And when you were talking about the grip and the things that might be in that trunk, the grip always contained things for the return back to the Caribbean, the passport, money and other legal documents. So, it was a very precious thing.

Wendy: Yeah.

Lynda: During our research at the museum, we found that people were only allowed to bring one suitcase with them. And in those days a lot of people didn't have them, so they had to borrow them. And then other people only had quite small suitcases and grips.

So, I was always thinking, how would I pack for moving to another country, what would I take? Well, even just go on holiday for a week, I'd take at least three suitcases and a travel bag. But those poor people.

So, I understand now why people only bought with the tools of their trade because they’re most people coming to work. And obviously, the trusted Bible, because majority of Caribbeans obviously are religious and if you were lucky, maybe a photograph of home, but most people didn't have that.

Could you describe it in a little bit more detail for us? Because we have obviously, again, being a museum, we have tons of them. Every one of them slightly different.

Wendy: It looks leather, so it's faux leather brown suitcase. It's got quite a sturdy handle, there's a lot of rust building up on it now. And yeah, she scratched her initials into the side of the suitcase.

Lynda: Oh, I love that. One thing I was going to ask you, what's your words of wisdom that you live by? Is there a saying, a recitation of Bible verse that to Caribbean elders passed down to you and that you still live by today?

Wendy: My nan used to say a lot of things. And it almost seemed like she was always talking in riddles because she'd say — they'd drop a saying in there. You were like, “What does that mean?” Classic one was, “Nah hang your hat too high.”

So, the other one that I do love that she did give to me, I think was, “Uno live good.” So, it was kind of like the saying, work good. It means come correct and be respectful.

And my nan was all about that, have respect for people and live good, live loving with everyone. I think that's the saying that I think I probably carry with me most that my nan said because she was that kind of person.

I remember saying at her funeral as well, there were 500 people and I stood up and I just said, “What can I tell you about my grandmother that you don't already know yourselves?” Because she treated everyone the same.

Lynda: That's lovely.

Wendy: And that was just who she was. So yeah, that would be the saying that I think I would live by, live good.

Lynda: What was your grandmother's name, I ask?

Wendy: Nits, but everyone called her Lovey.

Lynda: So, everyone could be a bit more lovey, like Lovey.

Wendy: Yes, exactly.

Lynda: Wendy, for our listeners not of Caribbean descent, could you tell us something and why in your opinion the grip is so significant?

Wendy: I think it's like you said, they came with this one item, and it was almost a metaphor for them carrying their hopes and dreams in there.

So, for me, the grip is an important item because it's almost kind of like something she can look at and think, “Look at where I came from basically,” that one item and now I have all this with my family.

And yeah, when we knew she was passing, we knew she was going and she said to me, “I have nothing to give you, I have nothing to leave you.” And I was kind of like, “Nan, don't worry about it, we're all grown now we can take care of ourselves.”

But probably without knowing that one item, I mean, what I'm doing with it now and photographing all these things that are giving me the opportunity to talk to you now and tell people this story. She gave me more than she could ever have imagined, I feel, so it's a very important item. And I'm sure my mom feels the same way about hers as well.

Lynda: Windrush 100, what would you like us to know about you, Wendy, or about the culture, but in Windrush 100 in 25 years?

Catherine: So, you will appear in the museum and what would you like the generations then to know about you?

Wendy: I guess that I still found it important enough and crucial enough to keep these stories alive and that's what I'm doing with my work with the pinhole photography. That's what I did when I decided to put together the book of the pioneers as Garfield McKenzie, who took the photos, called it of the Windrush generation. It was just to keep their stories and memories alive.

And I think, yeah, people coming to a museum and maybe seeing something that I've done, maybe that I played a small part in that, that contribution towards that bigger picture of how that generation really contributed to Britain today. I always have it in my head that they definitely put far more into this country than they ever took out of it. So, it's important to share that.

And even during the few workshops that I've done with schools, I found it quite interesting that one of the students came up to me and said, “I had no idea what Windrush was.”

I felt a little bit kind of — and he said to me, “I think this should be taught at schools because we learn about 1066 and it's not as relevant as this is, it's 75 years ago.” And I just think that I'm trying to put my bit in there to keep those stories alive and just to contribute to them in some way.

Lynda: That's wonderful, and you've certainly done that.

Catherine: And I'm thinking ahead and I'm going to feature Wendy Leocque as an example of the Windrush Creativity and Enterprise.

Wendy: Oh, thank you.

Lynda: I really enjoyed today's conversation. Mum, how does Wendy's story relate to what you already know about Caribbean traditions, whether it's related to the grip or just our culture in general?

Catherine: Well, by capturing items and artefacts using her repurpose camera, Wendy is showing that Caribbeans are a creative people who think outside the box and show an appreciation of what has gone before.

Lynda: And you could say, mum, she's gripping onto her past using her grip.

Catherine: Oh, Lynda.

[Music Playing]

Lynda: Well, sadly, that's all we have time for. If you're enjoying the show, please do let us know.

Catherine: You can write a review on whatever platform you're listening on, or you could even send us a message on our socials.

Lynda: We are at Museumand on Instagram and at Museumand_ on Twitter.

Catherine: Next week we'll be speaking to music journalist and social media strategist Demi Bailey-Paul, about another object that symbolises the Windrush generation perfectly.

Lynda: But until next time, bye-bye.

Catherine: Bye.

E4 - Say Cheese (And Bun)!

Speakers: Catherine Ross, Lynda-Louise Burrell, & Sabira Stanisavljevic

[Music Playing]

Riaz: My mother's Dutch pot.

Jocelyn: A poster which is a map of Barbados.

Female: My grandmother's suitcase.

Lenny: A flyer with a sound system on it.

Catherine: We all have one of those objects, don't we?

Lynda: Something so sentimental. We've had it for years.

Catherine: And losing or breaking it is not an option.

Lynda: These objects tell a story about us.

Catherine: About our lives, upbringing, and family.

Lynda: And for Caribbeans whose stories are often left untold, we are bringing these stories to the fore.

Riaz: They're just pots on a surface level, but they're kind of loaded in history.

Lenny: These flyers would've been going back to the ‘70s, so it brings back great memories.

Catherine: This is Objeks & Tings.

Lynda: A podcast celebrating Caribbean and my favourite tings.

Catherine: Episode four, Say Cheese (And Bun)!

Lynda: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Objeks & Tings. As you can probably hear, Catherine and I are still full of cold, so please bear with us. But we're on episode four already.

Catherine: I know, we're really steaming through. So, for those that don't know, this is the show that celebrates 75 years of Caribbeans in the UK through the objects they cherish most.

Lynda: And why 75 years you ask? Well, in this series, we are celebrating 75 years since the Empire Windrush came to British shores.

In coming to a brand-new country and making a new life for themselves, the Windrush generation were true pioneers. I'd ask you to imagine what this must have been like mum, but I don't have to because you were one of them.

Catherine: I was indeed. I came to Nottingham in 1958 with my mother and three siblings. I was only seven at the time, so I can't remember it all too well. But I do remember vividly, the houses all joined together, something I had never seen in Saint Kitts.

Lynda: So, this series is about celebrating your generation and the generations of Caribbeans that followed like me.

Catherine: And as some of you may know already, Lynda and I run the National Caribbean Heritage Museum, Museumand. A museum dedicated to sharing stories of Caribbeans in the UK.

Lynda: Because we run a museum, we are pretty obsessed with objeks and tings, which is why each week on the podcast we'll be inviting a different guest onto the show to talk about their most prized possession.

Catherine: Yes, we think every object has a story to tell, but particularly, those long-loved objects that we couldn't do without and wouldn't want to be without.

[Music Playing]

Lynda: So, shall we hear from today's guest, then?

Catherine: Yes, why not?

Sabira: My name is Sabira Stanisavljevic. I'm an actor, filmmaker, and I work in post-production as well for TV and film.

Catherine: Sabira’s mother is from Trinidad, but her extended family on her mother's side are from Tobago, which means they are Tobagonians, which isn't a word Sabira can pronounce all that well.

Sabira: My mom knows how to say it properly, I'm not even going to attempt it. I said it to my husband, he’s like, “You’re making that word up.”

Catherine: As is tradition, Sabira will explain in a moment what her object is, but before she does, I'm going to give you some hints.

This item is one pretty universal to the Windrush generation, and other generations for that matter.

Lynda: Well, that could be anything. Well, I need another clue.

Catherine: Back in the day, these objects required you to wear your Sunday best.

Lynda: Something to do with the church, Sunday school.

Catherine: Sunday school is not an object, Lynda.

Lynda: Oh, yeah.

Catherine: Give up.

Lynda: I do give up.

Catherine: Okay, Sabira, over to you.

Sabira: Today, I've chosen a photograph of my mom, my aunt, and my uncle when they were little. It's in really good condition. My mom's kept it really, really safe.

It was the first time that a photographer had come to town, and it was a really big deal. And my granddad was in hospital, and he told my grandma to make sure she went and got this photo of the kids.

So, there's my uncle on one side, my auntie on the other, and my mum, who was about four-years-old, five-years-old, standing on a chair in the middle. And you can see if you zoom into the photo that she's pinching a bag that she's holding. And it's really cute and this little concentration on her face.

And I've heard the story quite a few times over the years. She was asked by my uncle, “How are you going to remember today?” And she's like, “I'm going to pinch my bag and I'm going to concentrate really hard.” And you can really see that on her.

And she does. She remembers the photos, she remembers everything about that day. I think it's amazing that at that age, she had the realisation that this was such a big moment, and she really wanted to remember it.

My mom is a strong, determined, ambitious woman. You can't tell her anything really. But she's funny as well, and she's really funny. And she's very easy to make laugh, which I enjoy doing.

You know, for all her seriousness, she does love to have a bit of a chuckle, but she's done a lot in her life, and I really admire her.

She was an actress on the West end stage, she was in the original Jesus Christ Superstar. She studied Computer Science. She's got her master’s in computer science. She started a perfume brand, she's done so much in her life.

So, I think, growing up in London as a black female, she found it really tough. And I remember she said things like, she'd be walking to school and grown men would spit on her, which is just horrific to think that somebody so young had to go through anything or anybody had to go through anything like that.

So, yeah, I know she definitely found it really difficult, but the fact that she still found an industry that she enjoyed being part of, that she persevered no matter what, it really speaks to her strength.

Catherine: Wow, what a lovely piece there from Sabira, a real love letter to her mum. Do you feel inspired to say any nice things about me?

Lynda: No, not really. I say positive nice things about you. But on a serious note, I really do appreciate all you've done for me. And hearing Sabira talk about this photo drives home your idea of the Windrush generation being pioneers.

I just had to know more about Sabira's family, so we pinned her down for a little chat.

Catherine: Hello, Sabira?

Lynda: Hi.

Sabira: Hey.

Catherine: So, your mum is Trini, but your name is Sabira Stanisavljevic, that is no Trini surname. So, where's your dad from?

Sabira: So, my dad's actually from Serbia. That's where the name comes from, yeah, Stanisavljevic.

Lynda: Oh wow. So, how did your parents meet then?

Sabira: Like any good love story, they met in a bar in London.

Lynda: Oh, so there's hope for me yet, then? I could get married too.

Sabira: You know what, I met my husband in a bar, so you never know.

Lynda: So did my sister.

Sabira: Oh, wow..

Lynda: Oh, that's where I have to go. Let’s get some drinks.

Sabira: Old school is the best way.

Catherine: So, when did your mum first come to the UK, Sabira?

Sabira: My mom came to the UK when she was about 12-years-old. My grandma came over with her, my auntie, and my uncle, and they all came over on a banana boat.

So, they moved into West London and that's where my grandma chose to settle. So, yeah, my mom's been here since she was about 12-years-old.

Lynda: Alright. So, did you grow up in West London as well or where did you grow up?

Sabira: I grew up in West London as well. We didn't move very far. I live in West London now as well.

My mom lives up the road from me. My uncle lives around the corner, my sister lives down the road. So, yeah, I don't think any of us really moved very far. My auntie actually lives in my grandma's old house, and that is in White City.

Lynda: I love that. It's nice to be close to your family. I mean, I moved as far as I possibly could from mine.

But how was it for you growing up being half Trini and half Serbian?

Sabira: It was very difficult, I would say. We were the only children with any colour in us around where we grew up.

I mean, you walk around Notting Hill now, there's like loads of kids around, but there were no kids back then. Besides me, my brother and our next-door neighbour, it was all just a lot of white adults.

And I do remember one time when I was probably about five or six-years-old going down to the bathroom to brush my teeth and being really shocked that I wasn't white, because that was what I was seeing every single day.

It was really strange because also, we didn't go to Trinidad or Tobago when I was little. We predominantly went to Serbia. So, it was my dad's side of the family that we saw most of the time. And it was only until recently that I started to reconnect with my mom's side.

Lynda: Really, that's really interesting. Because I thought it would be the other way around. So, how was it going to Serbia as a little brown child? Was that culture shock or was that a norm?

Sabira: It was actually the norm, and it was such a novelty to them for us to be kind of … we'd drive over there all together as a family. And I remember people used to line up on the streets as we came in.

Lynda: Celebrities.

Sabira: It was a big, it was so bizarre. Thinking about it now, I'm like that's so weird.

Lynda: Is that … you were an actress, do you think?

Sabira: I was just used to it, and I just crave that kind of attention.

Lynda: Are there any similarities between the Serbian and the Trini cultures that from the outside, you would think there'd be nothing similar, but are there any those little things that only people that live it like, “Oh, that's very Serbian or that's very Trini.”

Sabira: I think the acceptance of other cultures, my granddad was very open to everyone and everything and I think that's quite telling of the culture there. And I think when you go to Trinidad and Tobago, you see how welcoming they are to everybody.

Oh man, they're the friendliest people on earth. But yeah, it's just accepting people for who they are and not making any judgements on anyone.

Lynda: Yeah, that's true. I think that's actually quite true. The majority of the Caribbean, we’re so welcoming. And I think sometimes that's been to our detriment, because that's why … things that we’ve been appropriated.

Because we're like share … the welcome one, welcome all. But that's really interesting too about the Serbian culture because you don't really hear much about Serbian culture at all. But now, you're saying this, I'm like, “I can actually go on holiday there, it’d be quite nice.”

Sabira: You kid, it'll snow.

Catherine: We loved hearing about your mother's photograph. Why did you decide to pick this as your objek for today?

Sabira: It has so much meaning, I feel to my mum. I always remember her talking about it and it was such a big deal as well.

Like they had a photographer in town for the first time ever, my mom's wearing a little white dress, and she's got a purse that she's hanging around her shoulder, and I just think it's so cute. I feel like she looks exactly the same.

Lynda: No, but I love that. Because when you look at a photograph, when you look back, I'd also be thinking white, in the Caribbean, no washing machines. That was all handwashed, hand-pressed properly, maybe with a hot stone.

Like my grandma said they used to do that in the Caribbean and leaving the clothes, but having hot iron as well. And all those little things that your grandmother would teach you on wash day, which I used to dread as a child; how to make sure that you wash your clothes properly and have that really good squeak.

Sabira: Exactly.

Catherine: I remember the photos that we took when we were children, there were six of us. So, there were six children and either one of the parents, depending who was taking the photo at the time, whether it was mum or dad, and trying to keep six children in order was quite difficult.

I remember a particular family photo that we took when we were quite young. My mum was a great seamstress. She made everything, absolutely everything. So, the two boys are in homemade suits that she made. They do look a bit 1950s.

Lynda: 1950s homemade. Sorry grandma.

Catherine: The fashion was the men wore trousers a little bit longer. So, they do look like they borrowed somebody's clothes, but they were actually made for them. Do you know what I mean?

Sabira: That’s amazing.

Catherine: And our dresses were the sticky out type, all freely and bows and things or whatever. Again, we looked a little bit picture postcard really. Not anything you'd want to wear now, or my granddaughter would want to wear now.

But we did look the part, but we were never all looking in the same direction at the same time.

Sabira: It's amazing, isn't it? I mean, luckily, they were all looking at the camera, but it's not like pictures now, is it? Where everyone's posing and smiling. It's kind of-

Lynda: Cheese!

Sabira: Yeah, they didn't know what to expect, so they're just standing there with straight faces and it's really fascinating. It's great seeing little photos from the past.

Lynda: I suppose it must be true, because unless somebody tells you what to do, how to act, you wouldn't know, would you? I wonder when we started saying “cheese” or as we say in our family “bun and cheese!”

Sabira: I might steal that one, I like that.

Catherine: It's very sad to hear your mother's experiences as she was growing up. And when I hear stories like this, I always think that we Caribbeans are taught respect all of our elders regardless.

So, for a young child to experience someone spitting and treating them so poorly it must have been so hurtful and confusing.

Sabira: Yeah, I think it was, and I think it had a really lasting effect on her. When we were growing up, she really tried to protect us from all of that and to try and foresee any situation that something may occur.

And it clearly affected the way that she interacted with certain individuals, and she just tried to protect herself and protect her family from then on in.

Lynda: I can totally see that. I mean, my mom never told me about that sort of situation, but used to say that when you went to school, the kids would come up to you and say, “Let me get the black off you and lick the finger and rub your skin, let's spit on you.”

So, what you say is, when you used to go home in the evening, first thing grandma would do is hose all of her children down, get them undressed, get them into the bath, wash it all off. So, it's just horrible, horrible, tough to go through that.

Sabira: It is.

Lynda: Things that people do.

Sabira: Yeah, it really is.

Catherine: It sounds like your mum really carved out a great life for herself. She must have been one of the first black actresses on the Western stage.

Sabira: She was, yes. And I can't remember the name of the woman, but there's a statue of a woman outside of Stratford East Theatre and that is the woman who took my mum under her wing and really nurtured her in her acting.

And yeah, there's still some news articles cuttings that we've got of my mom from when she was on stage, and she was called the next big thing and all that kind of stuff.

It's quite amazing. I look at these photos and I'm like, “Mom, your legs are so long.” It's like a photo of her reclining, she's got this amazing afro. And I was like, “Oh my goodness, but you're so little.”

Catherine: Oh, when you spoke about your mom, your smile was so wide, so big.

Sabira: Was it?

Catherine: Yeah, oh, you're so proud.

Sabira: I am really proud, she's such a determined, just amazing woman. She's done so much in her life and she's very, very humble about it. Or she's like, “Oh, it was just a thing I did or oh yeah, no, I just did that.”

And actually, most of the stories of my mom, I had to get from other people. Because she's like, “Listen, that was then, this is now.”

Lynda: But did you ever see your mum actually performing anything or was that before-

Sabira: I didn't, no, she gave up … so, I've got an older sister as well, but she gave up when she became pregnant with my sister.

Lynda: It's your sister's fault. A lot of things in my life are my older sister's fault.

Sabira: Not going to say out loud but …

Catherine: Yeah, that’s one thing … because really into the Caribbean culture, I have to blame our people, but it might be a thing that's widespread with all parents, but they never tell their stories, do they?

And we could learn from them and we perhaps will respect our parents a bit more if we really knew where they've come from, what they've done and whatever.

Lynda: What they've been through.

Catherine: Yeah.

Lynda: Well, you hear that word “pioneer” a lot, especially when it comes to the Windrush generation. But I must honestly say in your mom's case, she was a true pioneer, or she is a true pioneer.

An actress, working in computer sciences, black woman, who's ever heard of that? And with this perfume range, I love beauty stuff, I love perfume. I'm dousing it today, so it sounds so exciting. She sounds just like me, but I just can't act or do anything to science.

Lynda: As you're an actress now, were you inspired by your mum at all?

Sabira: I have been inspired by my mum my whole life. She was very-

Catherine: Beautiful, that's lovely. I think I might adopt you.

Lynda: I’m inspired by you. You inspire me every day.

Catherine: I'm so sorry.

Sabira: No, you know what, she was very creative and probably, subconsciously, I was inspired by her being on the stage as well and so I went into acting.

But I just love the creative freedom of being able to express yourself and I've definitely learned that from her.

Lynda: Wonderful. And I do recognize you, but I don’t know if I recognize you because I've been obviously planning this podcast, so I looked at you or if I've seen you on TV. I watch a lot of TV, TV is my best friend. I talk to the TV the way I talk to anybody in the world.

Have you been in anything that I may recognize you from?

Sabira: I have an advert out at the minute, where I'm a barista serving a coffee to a woman and that is on heavy rotation. They've just renewed it for another year.

Lynda: Wow.

Sabira: Literally, I keep getting messages from people going, “Oh, you were just on my TV last night.” And I’m just like, “Yes, I know, I do other things as well.”

Catherine: Well, that’s great, that's right to the minute. That's really good, thank you.

Lynda: What's it like being a black British actress at the moment in the industry, especially after 2020 and the whole George Floyd issue, has the industry changed much?

Sabira: I feel like there is a lot of opportunity. I think that people are working hard to make sure that shows and films are more diverse.

You do see the backlash of that from people online though, which I think is quite a strange take for people to have. Allowing others to have opportunity seems to irk a lot of people.

But generally, as an industry, I can see that a lot of people are working hard to make sure that there are opportunities for all.

Catherine: It's so lovely to watch TV now, and see yourself on it.

Sabira: Exactly.

Catherine: Because for most of my life, it wasn't the case. And then when you saw them, they were in those stereotype roles. So, it's nice and fresh to see what is being produced now. It's a pleasure to watch TV but I don't watch it as much as Lynda does, no.

Lynda: Nobody does. I still like it when — especially because we run the museum and whenever something's on TV, people always still call us, text us, WhatsApp us, and say, “We’ve seen that show, turn over to this channel, black people …” I love that.

Sabira: You know what, it's changed a lot even over the last few years. Because I mean, I only retrained as an actor maybe seven, eight years ago.

And even when I first came into the industry, you did have a lot of those stereotypical roles where it would be sassy best friend. I'm like, “Oh God, here we go.”

Lynda: Do the neck action. And not all black people do by the way, but we have to do that neck action.

Sabira: It's just like, “Okay, cool, can you speak with the London accent?” It's just like, “Well, what's a London accent?” It's just like, “Come on guys, we can do better than this.”

But you know what, even in the last few years, it's just gotten a lot better, and I think that's got a lot to do with a lot of people of colour being in a position to be able to write and make their own content as well.

Being able to put us into characters that aren't just your stereotypical, violent black male, sassy black woman. Which yeah, it's really helped to open up the industry.

Catherine: We got to end the show on a saying. We try and get a saying for every episode that we do. So, we are going to ask you, are there any family sayings that were always said in the home that you'd like to share with us?

Lynda: It can either be Trini or Serbian or a mashup of both.

Sabira: You know what, there's no sayings, but the thing that pops into my head, my mom's going to kill me, I’m so sorry. She used to get so annoyed with me and my brother running up and down the stairs.

Oh no, she's going to kill me, I'm going to say it anyway. She’s like, “Up and down the bleeding stairs.” I won't say that's a family saying, but it's definitely something that sticks out in my head when you ask about a saying from my childhood.

Lynda: There's something magical about stairs when you are younger, isn't there?

Catherine: Yeah, I think it's because kids love hurling themselves off things and stairs help with this. But apart from children loving stairs, what else have you taken away from this episode, Lynda?

Lynda: I really loved hearing about the Serbian culture and the surprising ways in which it's similar to Trinidadian culture, and it makes sense that they're both welcoming and very friendly, because that's exactly how I would describe Sabira.

Catherine: Well, sadly, that's all we have got time for today. If you are liking the series, we'd love to hear. Please like and subscribe wherever you listen to your podcast. And why not leave us a review.

Lynda: Next week, we have Wendy on the show to speak about an item that in my eyes is the most quintessential Windrush object there is. See if you can think about what it might be.

But until next time, bye-bye.

Sabira: Bye.

E3 - Where Di Noise?

Speakers: Catherine Ross, Lynda-Louise Burrell, & Lenny Bedward

[Music Playing]

Riaz: My mother's Dutch Pub.

Jocelyn: A poster which is a map of Barbados.

Female: My grandmother's suitcase.

Lenny: A flyer with a sound system on it.

Catherine: We all have one of those objects, don't we?

Lynda: Something so sentimental, we've had it for years.

Catherine: And losing or breaking it is not an option.

Lynda: These objects tell a story about us.

Catherine: About our lives, upbringing, and family.

Lynda: And for Caribbeans, whose stories are often left untold, we are bringing these stories to the fore.

Riaz: They're just pots on a surface level, but they're kind of loaded in history.

Lenny: These flyers would've been going back to the seventies, so it brings back great memories.

Catherine: This is Objeks & Tings.

Lynda: A podcast celebrating Caribbean and my favourite tings.

Catherine: Episode three, “Where de noise?”

Hello and welcome, I'm Catherine Ross, and this is my daughter, Lynda.

Lynda: Hello, and as you can hear, we both have quite bad colds, so please bear with us and don't judge us.

Catherine: Together, we are founders of the National Caribbean Heritage Museum, Museumand.

Lynda: We're also the host of this podcast, Objeks & Tings, which celebrates 75 years of Caribbeans in the UK through the objects they cherish most.

Catherine: Yes, as museum owners, we love all objects, particularly those that people hold most dear because these objects tend to have a wealth of stories attached to them, just waiting to be heard.

Lynda: So, we're here to hear them. Each week, we'll invite a different guest onto the show to hear about an object they adore. Can I fit any more “hears” in here?

[Music Playing]

Catherine: And this week we'll be speaking to a dear friend of mine, Lenny Bedward.

Lenny: I'm Lenny Bedworth, I play a sound system called Quantro. So, some people call me just Quantro: “How you going, Mr. Quantro?”

Lynda: I've been mislabelling Lenny for years, how disrespectful. So, go on, tell me mom, when and how did you and Mr. Quantro first meet?

Catherine: I met him at a birthday party of a friend of ours called Olive. He was playing the music and the place was jumping.

Lynda: Oh, I was there.

Catherine: Yes, you were.

Lynda: I forgot it was the first time we met him. Oh yeah, the music was great. Had all the old-time classics because Olive was in her eighties.

Catherine: That's right, yes.

Lynda: And then we had like more modern music as well. So, we had things for the elders and for the youngsters as well. It was a proper Caribbean party, all ages from three all the way up. It's great and good food, obviously, most importantly.

Catherine: True.

Lynda: So, Lenny founded Quantro sound system with his friends almost 50 years ago. Quantro was one of many sound systems being created in the Caribbean neighbourhoods all across the UK in the 1970s.

Many still exist today with nuance forming two. Notting Hill Carnival in London plays host to legions of them every year in fact. But what exactly is a sound system?

Lenny: Well, a sound system is a bigger disco. So, a disco is like a person, one person. It'll bring two speaker box; one bass, and one with a treble on it. But a sound system is a bigger version of that, where you could play in big events and stuff.

Catherine: But the term sound system also refers to the DJs and crew who make this magical music happen.

Lynda: That's cleared that up.

Catherine: So, you might know what's coming next, Lynda.

Lynda: Oh no, not this part again.

Catherine: Yep, it's guessing time. Lenny will reveal what object he's chosen in a moment, but knowing Lenny and what he does for a living, have you got any ideas of what it could be?

Lynda: Record or vinyl?

Catherine: Not quite, but you are on the right track. It's something to do with his sound system.

Lynda: Sound system, a speaker?

Catherine: So close. Here's Lenny or should I say Mr. Quantro to reveal all.

Lenny: So, my objek of today is a flyer with a sound system on it. So, the flyer I chosen was for a dance in Nottingham. It was called the Grand Dance at the Ventec Road School. And it was on Saturday the 12th of May, 1974. So, that will put me at 14.

My brother built this, and he was 16. So, he was the youngest sound from Nottingham to be playing all these sounds because we made a name for ourselves back in the day.

[Music Playing]

So, my dad, when he came over from Jamaica, he came with records and he used to keep blues parties, because back then, there wasn't many places for black people to go. So, they had to do their own events.

So, they had a gram now where they're playing their record off and then they'll invite people and people will tell people, and they'll come round to the houses. They will take it in turns to have a party each week, instead of having it at one house.

My brother, seeing these blues parties going on, he thought of a way how he could do his own disco. So, what he did was take the amplifier out of the gram and then he got a turntable and borrowed some speakers and made his own stuff.

We had a hundred-watt amplifier he built, and then we got two 15 inches speaker and he built a cabinet for those to go into.

So, there were six of us in the Quantro sound system. We used to club together with our pocket money to buy equipment. So, this particular time, there was a competition running, so we entered the competition.

There was about four other sounds in there as well, but the other three sounds broken down. The top section went, the amplifier was burning up, because we was all nervous at these things at those times. But my brother was a bit more advanced into this electronic stuff.

So, we ended up after the four sounds being the only sound to finish up. So, yes, so we won that and then I think we got about £100. So, we built up again and that is how we got onto these dances with these other big sounds from out of town because our name, then, was big.

It's still Quantro, we still got the sound system. The sound system will be going 50 years next year. It's a very good feeling to be doing a hobby. What started out as a hobby and to be paid for it, and still to be capable of doing it now just about.

Lynda: I've always loved a sound system and a good dance, but hearing about the history of them from Mr. Quantro himself hammers home how important they are to our culture. It really makes me feel proud and a tiny bit jealous that I wasn't there in the seventies to party with them.

Catherine: Well, I can't relate to the jealousy. I didn't go to dance as much myself, but I can relate to the pride. It's important to remember that people like Lenny paved the way for younger generations like yourself Lynda, to be able to party in peace.

Back in those days, finding a place to celebrate as a black Caribbean wasn't easy, but somehow, against all the adversity, Lenny managed it. We caught up with him to find out how.

Lynda: Hi Lenny, or should we say “Eh up Mr. Quantro?!”

Lenny: Quantro sounds better to me.

Lynda: Oh, okay. Eh up Quantro?!

Catherine: Yeah, we’d like to give you the old Nottingham greeting with an “Eh up!”

Lenny: Eh up!

Lynda: We love learning about your flyer. Could we ask why you chose this particular one for the grand dance?

Lenny: I've been on a lot of grand dances but the particular one I did like most of all, was the one with a sound called Shaka on it to give tribute to him because he is not long died. Shaka is a sound system and a person who played that sound system.

Lynda: So, Shaka, yes, he did die recently. Why was it so important for you to have this flyer with Shaka on it? What's the meaning about Shaka that you think is really important?

Lenny: Well, Shaka was a sound system from London. So, we came from Nottingham and then he wanted to bring us in on the platform. So, we was quite privileged to play with him about three times in our lifetime.

And we was the only ones from Nottingham to do so because you've got to remember they used to call Nottingham the country. They always thought London was better than everywhere else.

So, they didn't know a sound from Nottingham, the Midlands could put up a good performance. That's why he called us so many times.

Lynda: So, Nottingham and Quantro were doing big tings then?

Lenny: Yes, back then, yes. There was many other sounds but there wasn't on the road, there was more in the blues. So, we was a road sound to go all over the place and play different sound systems from all over.

Lynda: So, how does that differ then from — so sound systems were on the road and travelled where the blues, was that more stationary and just stayed in the local area?

Lenny: Yeah, the blues was just stationary. They'll get an old derelict house or whatnot and do their parties in there, and that wasn't our sort of thing. We liked to travel around.

Lynda: Is that where the term “road man” comes from?

Lenny: Yeah, most of it would come from there, and they will call you “road man” because you're always on the road. So, you know Jamaicans will always find a termination for everything.

Lynda: Yeah, we do.

Catherine: So, I know that you don't have the particular flyer you're talking about because it was quite a few years or decades ago now. You only have a photograph of it.

Lenny: Yeah.

Lynda: Why is that? Why don't you actually have the actual flyer?

Lenny: Well, there was a guy who used to collect the flyers in the sound system and his name was Monty, and he died about over 45, 50 years ago. So, what happened to all those original flyers? I've got a few and my brother Keith's got a few, but he used to just keep all of them.

Lynda: Yeah, was he part of the actual sound system or just someone that came to all of your dances?

Lenny: Yeah, he came to a lot of the events. He'll go out into the Midland and he'll be dancing away, skanking and representing the sound by his dancing.

Lynda: And again, for those that don't know, skanking is a dance?

Lenny: It's a form of a dance, yes. They used to have competitions as well in the dance arena when you're in these dances to see who are the best moves.

Lynda: Do you want to get up and show us Lenny, and I'll describe it for the listeners?

Lenny: No, thank you.

Catherine: Listening to you and Lynda talk about the flyers is one of the reasons why we started the museum. We need to keep these things, these documents that record the great things that we did in the past so that the future generation can see how amazing we were and the creativity we had.

So, yeah, in future make sure that you keep one of those or send them along to our museum, Lenny.

Lenny: I've got a few where I could send over.

Lynda: Don't send us the flyers, we'll come and pick them up, because we always know when we come to your house, we always get nice drinks.

I must say Lenny, we've known each other for a long time as we've said previously, but I've never asked you why is your sound system called Quantro?

Lenny: We're called Quantro because we used to have quad boxes. Now, quad boxes is four speakers in one box, but these one boxes was over six foot, about six foot tall.

Lynda: I remember back when I was out raving, and I used to always like to dance on the top of the speaker box. Did people and do people still do that, your dancers?

Lenny: Well, I hope not, there's this elephant safety business going on.

Lynda: Oh, nowadays.

Lenny: So, you can't be doing … and you've got to take out liability insurance and all sorts of things. So, it wouldn't be too wise for them to be doing that nowadays.

Catherine: So, I keep hearing about these sound boxes and whatever. Where'd you get this wood if it was so big?

Lenny: You see when you're young, in the seventies, nobody had no money. Where would you get these wood from? You have to get them off building site at the nighttime, because we can’t buy wood.

Catherine: It was a case of beg, borrow, and steal.

Lynda: Or just the steal part? Tief it.

Lenny: Yes.

Lynda: So, earlier Lenny, we heard about you used your dad's sound system to help make your sound system. Didn't you get a beat for mashing up his sound?

Lenny: Well, he didn't realistically have a sound system you know. What he had, every Jamaican parents would've had a gram. So, in this gram, it would be like a brown thing, like a cabinet.

And then it would have drinks in one part, one door you'll open, it would have drinks in there and then another part would have a radio and a turntable. So, that's what they used to use. And it was called a blue spot gram.

Lynda: Oh yeah, I've heard of that. I remember my grandparents having one of those. And the blue spot from what I remember was the really fancy one that the rich people had, is that right?

Catherine: Yeah, it was a real status symbol. And we've heard about your parents’ blues parties, were they like shebeen ?

Lenny: Yes, I would say so. But the terminology of the shebeen back in the sixties, there was nowhere really for people to go. So, they used to have these house parties. It's over the years now they turned it into shebeen 

Catherine: But how were shebeens different to house parties?

Lenny: I would say a shebeen is when everybody shoved into a house, what maybe derelict, it's nobody's house.

Lynda: So, is that where the term shebeen came from? Everybody was shoving into the house, is that it?

Lenny: I would say so, yes. Everybody shoving into a house. So, they were shortening it down to a shebeen.

Catherine: But Lenny, I wouldn't know about any of those house parties, blues parties or shibin because I was a little church girl.

Lenny: I wouldn't believe that for one second. Because even if people want to portray there was going to church, when there's a dance going on and their parents is sleeping, they're climbing out the window and somehow, they end up at the dance.

And there was one particular dance, some people climbed out their window. They made up the bed, they put the pillows in, so if their parents looked in the room, they'll sort of see a figure in there.

But this particular day, the dad went into the room and was checking and then he wasn't there, nobody was there. So, you know what they did? The mom and dad, they went down to the dance.

Parents came in, they turn on the light, walking around, that time, the man's daughters winding up in a corner. Now, winding up in a corner is when you're dancing with a young man very close. Then seeing his daughter, so he grabbed her out.

Lynda: And what did the girl's dad do to you?

Lenny: They would've got beaten.

Lynda: No, no, what did they do to you? I'm sure the story's all about you, Lenny.

Lenny: No, none of these stories is about me. These stories is about what I seen. My parents ain't going to come in no dance for me.

Catherine: Lenny used to play dances all across the UK, how did you transport your sound system?

Lenny: So, we went and hired a van. There was a neighbour running same times, he was named Mr. Brown. So, he was like a friend of the family, and he had a van, and then you have people who would want to come to the dance but they couldn't get to the dance so they used to go in the back of the van, what they call the van back.

Lynda: Van back, I like that.

Catherine: So, now we know how you travelled. But how many people were there in your particular sound system?

Lenny: So, you had say, six main people who would like be … you’ll have a person who would string up the sound. You've got someone who will put the record on. You'll have someone who was the MC. So, each person had a role.

Lynda: And what was your role, Lenny?

Lenny: I used to put the records on, you'll have a selector and then you'll pass me the record and I will put it on.

Lynda: Where would you buy your records from back then?

Lenny: We didn't get much of a pocket money but between all of us, we used to save. So, we would have to go out of town. You couldn't really get no records from Nottingham because everybody would have it.

But we used to end up going London because we used to have family down there, Birmingham, them and those kind of places. So, you're getting these records from Jamaica out of the press, but you have to get there early.

So, these records, what they would send, they maybe send about four of each record. So, you had to get there quick to get one of those. So, not a lot of sound system would be playing though.

Lynda: And can I ask, I know that Caribbeans would love nicknames like big man, shorty, those sorts of things. Did you all have nicknames for each other and if you did, what were they? But keep it clean because we don't want to get banned.

Lenny: I never really had no nickname. I can't remember my brother having no nickname. But my father, they used to call him Busher. So, I think when he was in Jamaica, when he was young, why they call him Busher, he was always in the bushes.

So, they just find words and names for you, and it just stick.

Lynda: So, that's an interesting one. What does it mean to be in the bushes?

Lenny: Back in Jamaica, in these bushes, used to have a sugarcane, cashews, all these things, what will grow; mangoes, and he liked to spend his time in the bush.

Lynda: Eating?

Lenny: Yeah, so his parents will be looking him because everybody would have to do chores. But then if you don't do your chore, you're going to get beaten.

So, my dad was always in the bush, so his name stuck to him from when he was small until he came to England because if you look on his grave, it would've bush around it.

Catherine: Oh, how lovely, that's really nice.

Lenny: Yeah, so that’s on his grave.

Catherine: So, I know you have a few grandchildren who are about the same age as you were when you started 14, 15. How would you feel if they did the same things as you?

Lenny: So, my oldest grandson's 15 on Sunday, and there is no way he'll be doing any of them things while I'm about, because times have changed. Things are different now, you'll be in more trouble than what I would've been in back in those days.

Lynda: So, it's so true because when I was younger and I was going out raving around the same age 14, my mum was such a good mum, she would always sit outside of the club in her car doing her work. So, if anything happened me and my sister could always run out and mum was always there, you were always there.

Catherine: Thank you for that Lynda, perhaps a little too caring a parent.

Lenny: Yes, but that just remind me of the young ladies whose mum came into the club. See your mom's outside waiting for you, is a good ting she never come into the club and drag you out.

Lynda: She didn't really need to because a lot of the bouncers were either family, family friends or some of the boys that she used to teach. So, everyone knew who we were, so we were always very safe.

Catherine: Quantro will be celebrating its 50th birthday next year, how will you be celebrating?

Lenny: Well, hopefully, we'll try and put on an event of some sort to celebrate with the people for our 50th year in sound system.

Lynda: Yeah, I'm looking forward to that. So, we're coming to the end of our conversation, and we always like to end with a saying: do you have particular saying that your family always use or maybe a Quantro saying, because I'd love to hear it.

Lenny: Well, mine would have to be “Walk good.” Now, walk good means keep out of trouble and walk safe.

Lynda: That's a good one.

Lenny: On your travels.

Catherine: That’s really reassuring and lovely. Yeah, I love that, thank you.

Lynda: I have one to add. A person called Mr. Quantro told me this a few years ago, and it always sticks in my head, which is, “Where's the noise?”

Lenny: Would that be my younger brother telling you that?

Lynda: It was you who told me that.

Catherine: And in fact, Lenny, I don't need to know where you'll be next year celebrating your birthday of Quantro. I’ll just walk down the street and say, “Where's the noise?” And we'll find you.

Lenny: That will be nice.

Lynda: I couldn't resist saying “Where de noise” to Lenny. It's just one of those things you always hear. 

Catherine: Particularly on a Friday or a Saturday night, it's weekend, it's party time.

Lynda: Or parties can also be called “jump up time!”

Catherine: Yeah.

Lynda: Also, do you remember somebody did say to us that if you see lots of cars in the Caribbean neighbourhood, there's a jump up, there's a party going on somewhere?

Catherine: That's so true.

[Music Playing]

Lynda: So, that's nearly it for today. I hope you enjoyed hearing about the roots of sound system culture here in the UK, and feel inspired to have a little dance, a little jig.

Catherine: Yes, but don't follow Lynda's example and climb on top of any speakers, we don't want anyone breaking someone's sound system. Now, we know how precious they are.

Lynda: I really did used to do that, oh dear.

Catherine: Tune in next week when we'll be speaking to actress Sabira about an object that transports you back in time.

Lynda: But until next time, bye-bye.

E2 - X Marks the Spot

Speakers: Jocelyn Chandler-Hawkins, Lynda Burrell, & Catherine Ross

[Music Playing]

Riaz: My mother's Dutch pot.

Jocelyn: A poster, which is a map of Barbados.

Female: My grandmother's suitcase.

Lenny: A flyer with a sound system on it.

Catherine: We all have one of those objects, don't we?

Lynda: Something so sentimental. We've had it for years.

Catherine: And losing or breaking it is not an option.

Lynda: These objects tell a story about us.

Catherine: About our lives, upbringing, and family.

Lynda: And for Caribbeans whose stories are often left untold, we are bringing these stories to the fore.

Riaz: They're just pots on a surface level, but they're kind of loaded in history.

Lenny: These flyers would've been going back to the seventies, so it brings back great memories.

Catherine: This is Objeks & Tings.

Lynda: A podcast celebrating Caribbeans and their favourite Tings.

Catherine: Episode two, X marks the spot.

Hello, and welcome to Objeks & Tings, a podcast celebrating 75 years of Caribbeans in the UK.

Lynda: Yes, welcome. I'm Lynda, the Creative Director of the National Caribbean Heritage Museum, Museumand.

Catherine: And I'm Catherine, the founder.

Lynda: She's also my mum. And together we are on a mother-daughter mission to celebrate the Windrush generation and share stories from British-Caribbeans of all ages.

Catherine: And we've done that first with our museum, and now, to celebrate 75 years since the Windrush came to British shores, we've started a podcast too.

Lynda: Yes, as museum curators, we know only too well the power of an object to elicit memories. So, each week, we'll be speaking to a different guest about an object or ting close to their heart, and using that as a jumping off point to tell stories about what it is like being Caribbean in the UK today.

Catherine: Yes, exactly. And this week, we have the lovely Jocelyn on the show.

Jocelyn: My name is Jocelyn Chandler-Hawkins and I live in Reading, and I am a film event producer.

Lynda: Jocelyn's family is from Barbados, which means you can refer to her as one of two things.

Jocelyn: So, I would refer to myself as a Bajan, but increasingly, more people say Barbadian, but either or, they're interchangeable.

Catherine: Jocelyn's object today is something many Caribbeans have to remind them of home. Go on Lynda, have a guess.

Lynda: Reminds me of home, so it could be a picture?

Catherine: Not quite.

Lynda: An object like a porcelain figurine of a place in town?

Catherine: No, now you're way off.

Lynda: What is it?

Catherine: For some people, these items are easy to read, but for others, it causes problems.

Lynda: Ah, a newspaper, a book?

Catherine: I think you're quite off track, really. So, as you're not very good at guessing, let Jocelyn explain.

Jocelyn: The object that I'm sharing is a poster, which is a map of Barbados. It was one of my dad's prized possessions. He was so proud of it, and it doesn't have a high financial value, but it meant so much to him.

And it's one of the few remaining items I have of his, and I've become the family custodian for it. So, I'm really very proud of it.

So, the poster is probably a little bit smaller than an A3 size piece of paper. It's getting a bit faded now. You can see where it was previously folded up. So, the paper folds are in there.

The map of Barbados pretty much fills the whole piece of paper. And they're all in illustrations. Lots of different things to sort of see and do and things that reflects the heritage. So, whether it's the Blackbelly sheep, cricket in the Caribbean, it's still got Sam Lord's Castle on there.

That shows how old it is. But apparently, that crumbled and fell into the sea some years ago. So, that's one of the things I love about it, that it's an older reference point of Barbados.

So, the poster was framed, and it was on the wall throughout my childhood. And unfortunately, my father died when we were children. And one day, a couple of days later, there must have been some vibration, it fell off the wall and the frame that it was in broke.

So, my mum folded it up and tucked it away. And when she then came to move house, because she decided to downsize after, and we were all grown, she came across it and I happened to be there when she was packing up. And I just said, “Oh, I would like to look after it.”

So, once I got it home, I thought, oh, I can't lose sight of it again. So, that's one of the reasons that it always goes on display. It's not one of those things that goes in the loft.

And actually, my husband will say to me, “Oh, where should we put the Barbados poster?” Because we've moved a couple of times in the last 10 years. But anyway, it hasn't fallen off the wall since I've looked after it, so it's all good.

So, to describe my dad, he was quite realistic and quite straightforward. And if we were saying, “Oh, we're scared of a monster.” Oh, he'd say “They haven't got any power, get into bed.”

I remember him as being fairly tall, quite a slim build. He loved to ride his bike. Sometimes, he'd take us with him to the allotment, but you'd normally be put to work. So, whether you were picking potatoes or helping with lettuces.

But I think having grown up in sort of the countryside of Barbados, so my parents didn't grow up in the Sandy Lane as it is now. They grew up in rural Barbados.

So, a whole thing of working the land and bringing in the sheep and growing your own food was very much at the heart of it. So, when people talk now about kids understanding where their food came from, it's like, “Oh, my dad didn't realise he was a bit of a pioneer.”

Nowadays people have a digital footprint when they pass on and things like that. But I was saying to one of my siblings actually, he doesn't feature in many photographs beyond obviously, when he passed.

And so, any photographs we've got or anything we've got, it is very precious. And it's kind of silly really, because if he was here, my dad would probably be quite nonchalant about it. It doesn't matter.

But I hope that wherever he is, he's looking on and thinking I'm really pleased it's on display. That's what I hope.

Catherine: Hearing Jocelyn speak so fondly of her dad really reminds me of my own. As you know, Lynda, my dad back in St. Kitts was a well-known boxer, but here in the UK, he was more known as a preacher.

And actually, I was speaking to one of his friends yesterday and he was telling me one of his memories of my dad, was that he always carried a bible in his inside pocket.

Lynda: Yeah. And I guess if granddad was still with us and a guest on the show, he would choose his bible as his object.

Catherine: Yes, definitely.

Lynda: See, this is why hearing about people's favourite objects is such a good way into stories, not just about their families, but about your own as well. Everyone has a story to tell, sometimes we just need somebody else's to spark it.

On that note, we caught up with Jocelyn to find out more about her object and the stories that come with it. Hello, Jocelyn/

Jocelyn: Hi there.

Lynda: I loved hearing about your object, and we'll talk about that a little bit more in a second. But could you tell me a little bit about when your parents first came to the UK?

Jocelyn: Yes. So, my parents first came to the UK in the early 1960s from the island of Barbados. So, big up all the Bajans out there. And they met in Barbados and then my father came to the UK first to find somewhere for them to live, and he settled in Reading.

Because there was already quite a large Bajan community in Reading, and he knew people here anyway. And then my mum came over, I think it was about a year or two, about a year later. And they then got married.

Catherine: Yeah, that experience is quite general amongst the Windrush arrivals. One coming first, checking out the community, checking out sources of employment, and accommodation, and then bringing the others over.

My family story is that my eldest sister came first because she wanted to study nursing, and as she settled in, she thought it was a good place for the whole family to come.

So, she said to my dad, I think you ought to bring the family over, but come first, have a look and find accommodation, and then bring the family over, which is what happened.

He came first, found a job, found a house for us, and then myself and my three other siblings came with my mum, and we settled in Nottingham in the Midlands.

Jocelyn: Yeah, my parents didn't have any children in Barbados. So, there's six of us, I'm number five. And we were all born in the UK so but yeah, it's quite an interesting thing when you have maybe some children that were born back in the Caribbean, and then some were born here. It must create a different kind of dynamic.

Lynda: That's so true because what I've heard in the work that we've done for the museum, lots of families where they had some children in the Caribbean, some in the UK, and they would send for their children. I think that's called — what's that called again?

Catherine: Barrel children.

Lynda: Barrel children, that's right.

Catherine: And they got that name because the parents here used to send back barrels of goodies and treats for those children that were left behind. Sometimes it was essentials, clothing, household items and so on.

But sometimes it was the treats like the dolls. I loved shopping to buy the dolls to send back to people and toys that you wouldn't necessarily get in the Caribbean.

Now, those children that were left behind were either because parents couldn't afford the fare straight away, but also it was sometimes to look after older family members like grandparents or ageing aunts, and so on.

But when they finally came, they found, as you said, the dynamics — there was one group from back home and the other group that were here. And the ones back home would be the older, but be more restricted than the ones born here because they'd be treated like English children with a lot more freedom and fewer duties to do around the house.

Whereas that's very traditional back in the Caribbean. And I also heard that some of those barrel children were a bit resentful, especially if they had to stay there, never ever came, and some never ever came to England. Their parents left them there.

Jocelyn: Yeah, a project I worked on in the Berkshire area and somebody I interviewed for an oral histories project, he came from Jamaica and he had been left in Jamaica whilst his parents came here to find work and settle. And they subsequently had more children.

And when it came the time for him to come to the UK, his grandfather didn't want him to come over because he'd grown so attached to him and wanted him to stay. And then when he then came over, it was quite a culture shock and luckily, him and his siblings connected and they had a good relationship.

But the whole kind of assimilating into sort of English schools and English life, and things that I suppose a white English person would take for granted — the way the weather is or what you eat for dinner, certain foods that you get.

So, it's much more than just having a different skin colour or a different accent, there's so much more in that. But what I'm proud of for our community is that we've tried to hold on as much as we can and you do end up sort of living, certainly for my generation — you sort of are a Bajan kid at home and you're an English kid at school.

But I look back at it now and I see it almost as a superpower that we had this other kind of resilience and culture to dial into and to have there alongside everything else that we were growing up amongst in the UK.

Lynda: That's so true. And I totally identified with what you were saying about you are one way outside of the home and you're another way inside of the home. And I think, yeah, you're right about the superpower.

Because I felt like a lot of my white English friends, what you saw was that was it, the surface layer. But we always had a bit more knowledge and the way that we're so close to our grandparents that there was that other voice.

There was that other generation that you could get support from and that you could learn from. And lot of my friends didn't really have that relationship. Where now after school, you'd go to your grandparents and you'd be with them and you'll learn all those little Caribbean things and how to make plait bread and how to clean the house properly, which wasn't that fun.

But all those little things that you take through your life, and you assume that everybody knows these sort of things. Monday was a day that both my grandmothers in my mom and dad's side would do the washing.

And like people don't know how to hand wash properly or do things because they don't really spend time in the same way in our culture. That's just what you do. That's normal.

Other people won't do that. So, you pick up so much and then only when you get older you realise, I was so fortunate to have had that time and to have that learning and not just have to read it in a book, but you're actually living it.

Catherine: You mentioned you've got quite a Bajan community in Reading. Can you tell me a little bit more about that?

Lynda: Just to say really quickly, every Bajan that I know is from Reading, every single person I know. So, yeah, I'm sure we have some friends in common.

Jocelyn: We probably do. And it's interesting though because we probably take for granted the kind of span of Bajans who came to Reading. But as I said, I'm one of six children, most of the families we grew up with alongside going to school with, going to Sunday school with my parents, worked with, most of them at that time, had big families.

But as the Caribbean, as a people, it's important that whatever island you come from, you just try and connect up as much as possible. Because we're so much stronger together.

Lynda: Definitely.

Catherine: I agree with you, and I have to tell you that I'm from St. Kitts, but since then, my world has expanded and I got to know a lot of Bajans. And wherever I have met them; Birmingham, London, wherever there are even a few up in Newcastle — and they always say, it's your confidence, I think you, Bajans.

They always say there are two kind of people in this world, those who are Bajans and those who wish they were.

Jocelyn: That's quite funny.

Lynda: I'm going to just really quickly jump in here and say something, don't take offence; but I love the way that Bajans speak, that sing song. I love it, I love the accent.

Jocelyn: Yeah, yeah. I don't sound very Bajan because I was born and raised in this country, but in the right circumstances, I can be very Bajan, but thank you for saying that. That's really kind of you. It's not just in an accent, it's a way of being.

Lynda: So, the poster of the map as a child, did you ever think that it was a treasure map because Sam Lloyd's Castle was on there and do you know who Sam Lloyd was? So, I think as a pirate, I think it's a treasure map. Well, I think you need to get the map and I think you need to go out there and start digging.

Jocelyn: I know that's a really great question. I never thought of it as a treasure map, but I knew how much it meant to my dad, how proud he was of it. And that was enough for me.

So, in his own eyes, I suppose the poster, the map was a treasure to him. And it doesn't have necessarily a high financial value, but it was treasure in that way. And because our dad has now died, he died some years ago, I think it's one of the few things I have that belonged to him and he was really proud of it.

So, from that point of view. And I suppose Barbados seemed mythical, it seemed so far away, which it is from the UK, and it felt like somewhere that I wouldn't get to visit.

I did subsequently get to go as a child unfortunately, after he died. So, I didn't get to travel with him. But I suppose the magic and the mystique and the treasure came from his feelings about it. But it's a good question, I hadn't thought of it like that.

Lynda: That's a lovely answer. That is the treasure. Yeah, I like that.

Catherine: Yeah. I heard that the poster made an appearance at your wedding.

Jocelyn: Yes, that's correct. It was at our wedding. So, when you go to weddings where people decide to give each table a theme, and actually, it was my husband who's not from Barbados, who said to me, “Well, why don't we name each table after a parish from the island, and then you could use the poster and have it there as a way of including your dad in the day, but in like a positive, uplifting way.”

“And then it would mean then that people would get to know a bit about Barbados if they haven't already been there. And they'd find their seats by looking at the different parishes.”

So, we didn't stick anything to it because it is too precious to me for that. But next to it, we had another board that had each parish highlighted and the names underneath so you knew where you were sitting.

My parents come from Parish of St. Andrew, so that was the top table that we were on with my mom and my in-laws and everything. But yeah, it was a really thoughtful gesture because he never got the chance to meet my dad.

So, he wanted to do something to sort of recognize him. And then unbeknown to me, he then mentioned my dad in the speech, which I hadn't cried up until that point. So, then I welled up.

And actually my mum was then at the map pointing out bits of Barbados and so that was a nice way for her to talk to friends of ours that she hadn't met.

Lynda: That's a really good idea. And I think when I get married (not if, when I get married because it will happen), I might steal that idea.

Jocelyn: You are very welcome to it. You steal away. Especially if there's somebody who can't be there or something that just sentimentally means a lot to you, it's a nice thing to do. So, I'm looking forward to seeing a picture from the wedding.

Lynda: Let’s find the man first, then I’ll do it.

So, we are big fans of sayings on this program and each episode we like to use a saying or two. Do you have any sayings or words of wisdom that you remember your parents using?

Jocelyn: So, my mum used to say, and actually, in fact she still says it, “If you haven't got horse, ride a cow.” So, if you haven't got what you need, you use something else. And one of my brothers always says that, if you put mum in the kitchen with just a few basic ingredients, she'll come up with a banquet.

And I think that's true of many Caribbean women of her generation who are in their sort of mid to late seventies and onwards, that my mum grew up cooking for her siblings, she's the oldest of all of her siblings.

So, she grew up cooking for them from quite a young age. So, she's one of these people who can whip something up. So, that whole, if you haven't got a horse ride cow has been used a lot and rings true probably in every area of her life.

And she'll chuckle when she gets to hear this because she would say it to us a lot and still says it now.

Lynda: I love that.

Catherine: That's wonderful.

Jocelyn: Although what I will say about my mum's cooking, that you'll get a Bajan twist on a lasagna or a Bajan twist on sweet and sour, you know what I mean?

Lynda: I love that, it's the best way. Best Chinese food I’ve had is Caribbean Chinese food. I always say that to everyone.

Jocelyn: One of my grandmothers used to make chow mein and we were like, “How did she end up making chow mein?” It always tasted good. But it was like, “How did she find that recipe?”

But she must have found or seen it somewhere and she loved making it. It was one of her favourite things along with fish cakes and cou cou and saltfish and all those things though.

Lynda: Do you think it was the indentured workers?

Catherine: Yeah, I think it may have been there.

Jocelyn: Probably, yeah. Because she did work on a plantation and used to cut sugarcane and things. So, my grandparents did … I mean I say a plantation, it was no longer officially a plantation, but when she was young, she did work on it.

And it's a shame because by the time I was old enough she had passed on. I didn't really get to ask her about those stories. In fact, both sets of grandparents cut sugar cane and had that kind of life.

Lynda: It's so true because my mom, your grandmother, she was from Calcutta, but mom didn't-

Catherine: Oh, okay.

Lynda: Mom came to England and didn't really have a chance to have those real conversations with her to find out a bit more about her, but so interesting, isn't it?

Catherine: Yeah, because I came here when I was seven, so didn't realise the importance of sitting and chatting with the eldest. Do you know what I mean? We need to remember that and encourage our own children to do that.

Jocelyn: Yeah, definitely.

Catherine: I love Jocelyn's mum’s saying: “If you don't have horse, ride a cow.” I know she spoke about it in regards to cooking, but you can really apply it to anything, can't you? And it really sums up the Caribbean make-do attitude.

Lynda: Well, you would say that because you can't cook, but it's still true. We don't like complaints, just solutions.

[Music Playing]

Catherine: So, that's all we have time for today, but tune in next week when we'll be speaking to a really good friend of mine, Lenny Bedworth.

Lynda: Yes, Lenny will be on the show to teach us all about the Jamaican sound system culture in the 1970s.

Catherine: Which I would know nothing about of course, because I was a good church going girl.

Lynda: Or boring. Anyway, until next time, bye-bye.

Catherine: Bye.

E1 - The Blacker The Pot

Speakers: Catherine Ross, Lynda Burrell, & Riaz Phillips

[Music Playing]

Riaz: My mother's Dutch pot.

Joceyln: A poster, which is a map of Barbados.

Male: My grandmother's suitcase.

Female: A flyer with this system on it.

Catherine: We all have one of those objects, don't we?

Lynda: Something so sentimental, we've had it for years.

Catherine: And losing or breaking it is not an option.

Lynda: These objects tell a story about us.

Catherine: About our lives, upbringing, and family.

Lynda: And for Caribbeans whose stories are often left untold, we are bringing these stories to the fore.

Riaz: They're just pots on a surface level, but they're kind of loaded in history.

Male: These flyers would've been going back to the seventies, so it brings back great memories.

Catherine: This is Objeks & Tings.

Lynda: A podcast celebrating Caribbeans and my favourite tings.

Catherine: Episode one, the blacker the pot.

Lynda: Hello, and welcome to Objeks and Tings, a podcast where Caribbean share their stories their way.

Catherine: I'm Catherine, and that was my daughter, Lynda. And together, we are the National Caribbean Heritage Museum: Museumand.

Lynda: And today, June 22nd is really important and a special day for us because it's Windrush day.

Catherine: Yes, I can't believe it's been 75 years already. So, for those who don't know, 75 years ago today, hundreds of Caribbeans invited by the government came to help rebuild Britain.

The first arrivals came on the Empire Windrush. This was the first of many ships that would take people from all across the Caribbean to the UK. Most to work, many to study, and others to settle here and make Britain home.

Lynda: So, today, is clearly a big day. And what better way to celebrate than to start our own podcast? It's based on a book we wrote called 70 Objeks & Tings, looking at 70 objects that the 184 people that we actually interviewed said were important. Some of the things that came from the Caribbean, and some of the things that we found when we moved to the UK.

And it's a really nice book in the fact that these are real Caribbeans telling their own story, their own way, and we've just put the book together.

So, the way the book is compiled is each page tells a different story of an objek or ting. And that's a bit like what we're going to do in our podcast.

Catherine: Each week, we'll be inviting a different guest onto the show to talk about their most precious possession, and then, we'll use it as a jumping off point to reminisce and tell stories about Caribbean life in the UK.

Lynda: So, I think it's time we've heard from today's guest, Riaz Phillips.

Riaz: Hi, I'm Riaz Phillips. I'm a writer, an occasional video maker from London, and I'm the author of Belly Full: Caribbean Food in the UK, West Winds: Recipes, History and Tales from Jamaica.

Catherine: And although Riaz has written many books about Caribbean cuisine, he doesn't actually identify as a chef.

Riaz: No, I definitely wouldn't describe myself as a chef. In my head, a chef is a very like professional endeavour. Just even the skills of being able to chop certain things really efficiently, like all those things I don't have at all.

Catherine: Riaz has family from all over the Caribbean, but his immediate family is from Jamaica, which is where his object is from too. I'm going to let Riaz reveal what his objek is in a moment, but I'll give you a few clues.

Riaz uses it in his line of work.

Lynda: Ah, something to do with a restaurant or food.

Catherine: Yes, you are getting close. Now, here's the next one; it's named after a country, but it's not Jamaica.

Lynda: So, something to do with cooking. So, but a calabash or … oh that's not a country. I shouldn't say jerk pan, but that's also not a country. I give up.

Catherine: Okay, as you're never going to get it, here's Riaz to put you out of your misery.

Riaz: My object today is my mother's Dutch pot. It's called the Dutch pot sometimes known as Dutch ovens. They're just pots on a surface level, usually made from cast iron or lately aluminium. But they're kind of loaded in history and culture and they've been part of like West African culture passed down to Caribbean culture for centuries.

When they're first built, they're kind of like spotlessly, shiny, polished metal. But over the years, when you cook with them and you use seasonings like cumin and curry powder and the oils, eventually that starts to build up.

And along with the fire that you keep applying to them over the years, eventually, they turn from a pearly silver, and they start going slightly brown and eventually, they become like pitch black.

And a lot of people think that's where the magic comes from, those years of seasoning, that builds up and sometimes gives a flavour that you can't like recreate anywhere else.

My pot in question belonged to my mom. And then of course, when she passed away, it became mine. And there's a particular memory I have of this Dutch pot when I was preparing for my first cookbook, West Winds, and I was making curry goat. I tried to make it a few times before at my own place and it just didn't taste right, it didn't seem right.

So, one evening, I went to my mom's place and just asked her like, “Can you help me with this curry goat?” But in the evenings it's kind of like my mom's downtime. So, when she was describing how to make it, she was also speaking on the phone to her cousin at the same time, like talking about EastEnders or something.

So, she had the phone on her ear in one hand and like a spatula in the other hand like showing me like talking and managing both conversations. And I think that's very typical of older aunts and moms, especially in my background community. Like a lot of the kind of elder matriarchs are incredible at multitasking.

They can like hold a baby and feed a baby or change his nappy and do something else at the same time, which is a skill like I definitely don't have.

So, as I said, she was just showing me with a spatula in some tongues, how to brown the meat in oil and let it soak first on kitchen paper, and then seasoning the goat, putting the powders into the oil, mixing them.

If you've ever cooked any style of Asian or Caribbean curry, like the smell immediately takes over your house when the powder or the season meat touches the oil, it's like an explosion of smells.

So, fortunately, we have an extractor, so you know something seriously is being cooked when you can hear the extractor fan. You leave the pot for a couple hours on simmer, like you can hear the bubbles if you're attentive enough.

And yeah, you come back every so often to check on it and give it a little stir. And I guess after about three hours, if you're not using a pressure cooker, it's ready. It tasted great.

Slightly salty but not too salty. Like a strain of heat from the scotch bonnet, but not too much heat. Really tender meat. Balanced well with the potatoes, tasted like nostalgia, like how it was made when I was growing up.

[Music Playing]

Catherine: From hearing Riaz speak, you really get a sense that every Dutch pot has a story to tell.

Lynda: You do, don't you? And not just about the family that owns it, but also the history it’s a part of.

We caught up with Riaz to discuss the Dutch pot in a wider sense including the part has played in Caribbean life, both here in the UK and in Jamaica, as well as all of the delicious things we Caribbeans like to cook in it.

[Music Playing]

Catherine: Hello Riaz. Hello, and thank you for joining us today.

Riaz: Thanks for having me.

Catherine: Do you think the food tastes different dependent on what it's cooked in?

Riaz: Yeah, actually I do. I think when something's cooked in a heavy-set pot, like a Dutch pot or a skillet, it has the ability to cook like slower and longer without getting burnt or overcooked at the base.

And sometimes you find when you do a big cook of rice on a thinner pot, the bottom of that big rice and peas is always going to have that like burnt lining, which some people really like, but I'm not a huge fan of.

Lynda: Oh, I'm a fan.

Riaz: Yeah, some people are. I don't begrudge it.

Catherine: Yeah, there have been fights in families to get that burnt bit off the bottom.

Riaz: Yeah.

Catherine: It's very popular.

Riaz: Actually, I'll tell you the time I do like it is when you make corn milk porridge, and you have that burnt bit.

Catherine: Yeah.

Riaz: They call it bun-bun. I love that. I do like that.

Lynda: Once I was going to get some street food, Caribbean street food here in the UK, and they didn't want to sell the last, the last portion and I was like, “Oh, been working late. This is the only time I could come to get the food.” The woman said to me, “Oh no, it's the burnt bit on the bottom.” Like “That's the best part, I'll pay you double.”

Riaz: No, should just said, “Oh okay, I'll pay you half.”

Lynda: Oh yeah, next time, next time.

Actually, I can remember the first time I went to Jamaica with my dad because my dad's was Jamaican and my mum was from Saint Kitts, and at this point, they were divorced. I'm not bringing it down, I'm just telling you the truth.

And I can remember going to daddy's family's home which was up in the bush, and we were driving up to Red Ground and we saw this man on the side of the road and he was making Dutch pots.

And daddy like got the driver to stop. You know how you also have a driver in the Caribbean to take you up in the scary bits because they drive quite recklessly in the Caribbean compared to the UK. And daddy made the man like screech to a halt and he pretty much bought every single Dutch pot there, all for family back in the UK.

And I was thinking, because I was quite young, and I was thinking why is that man sitting on the side of the road making a pot in this heat? Why is daddy buying them all? Why don't we just go to John Lewis and buy them all somewhere like that?

At that point, I had no idea how important the Dutch pot, the Dutchy, the Dutch oven is to our community and to our culture. But now, looking back, I'd love to have gone to that man, asked him some questions, but at the time, when you are seven-years-old, you're like, “That's a bit strange.”

Catherine: When I arrived in the UK from the Caribbean, I was surprised at how small the sauce pins were because we have such large families. But they were made out of aluminium then, and for me, it didn't seem to make the food as sweet.

Lynda: I remember you telling me mom and some of the Windrush generation that we work with, telling me the stories about how they had to use those sauce pans that we had in England at the time.

But as soon as their family members and friends were coming over, they would ask them to bring the good old Dutchy with them. So, then we started getting them in England as well.

So, from ‘48 to about, I think it was mid-fifties people didn't have the Dutch pots. Then eventually, they started coming in in droves and everybody started having a Dutch pot that was Caribbean in the UK because we realised-

Catherine: A feature in many Caribbean homes.

Lynda: Definitely, definitely.

Riaz: No, it's quite interesting to hear the dissonance between what people were told it was going to be like in England and what actually it was on arrival, what they expected.

I heard a lot of people from older generations from recordings and stuff I listen to who like they couldn't even believe that there were like poor people in England. Like they couldn't believe that there was like an underclass. They couldn't believe like the conditions that like other English white people lived in when they came.

Lynda: That's so true. You said things like that, didn't you mom about road sweepers and the like?

Catherine: Yeah, it was strange seeing white people doing menial or blue-collar jobs. It was like no, but that's the norm.

Lynda: You were saying before about building the taste over time when you cook in a Dutch pot, and it reminded me of that old Caribbean saying, the blacker the pot, the sweeter the food. Do you have any other food sayings that you can share with us?

Riaz: Can't remember verbatim, but my uncle would always have this saying about like, like the stew's not going to cook quicker if you keep looking at it.

Lynda: Oh yeah.

Riaz: Because we'd always be like peeking into the pot and like hovering around it and asking when it's going to be ready, and like yeah it was just like this idea around like patience because actually when you keep taking the lid off, the pot like slows the process a tiny bit.

Lynda: That's so true. I remember on Sundays when my parents were together then and my dad would cook because my mum doesn't cook. Tell you more about that later but mum doesn't really cook. And we could never wait, and I was a little, little fat child.

So, I can always remember with the chicken, daddy would always give us a chicken neck a bit earlier. So, I always have to get the little chicken neck and suck on that and gnaw on that until the rest of the meal was ready. So, it's true, we do need patience.

Riaz: Yeah, yeah. It's interesting because I never like chicken or turkey neck, but everyone in my family's always got these like small little bits that they like the most So, I've got one cousin who's like, don't even bother trying touching the neck because you already know it's for her.

Like she loves it so much. So, you just know that's like her piece, and I've got my little bits that I like the best and yeah, my treat was always the dumplings and the stew and the soups. That was always the thing that I had like, neck.

So, my mom would always be furious because she'd come back from work like the next day to cook a soup and the whole soup's there, but every single piece of dumpling's gone.

Lynda: And boiled dumplings are the best. Fried dumplings are nice, but boiled dumplings are the best. But even better than that is when we usually my gran would slice them up the next morning and fry them. Have that with like egg and bacon.

Riaz: Oh yeah. Boil and fry.

Lynda: Oh, my goodness. That is my absolute favourite thing in the world.

Riaz: Yeah.

Catherine: I found as a member of the Windrush generation who came here quite young, in school meals, you had dumplings and I'm expecting the sort of dumplings you'd cook in a Dutch pot, and I'd get soggy dumplings which was nothing like what I was accustomed to.

Riaz: That must have been traumatising.

Catherine: It was. it was soft and pappy and whatever. And a good dumpling is one you bite into, and you remember. Some people even say the noise of biting into the dumpling, all of that adds to the excitement of a meal.

[Music Playing]

Lynda: Catherine's not a great cook as I've said, but she's an avid reader and she loves reading. I'm actually saying that we both love your books. She's not going to be inspired to cook. She’ll be inspired with everything else.

Riaz: No, that's fun.

Lynda: But we both do love your books. Where does your inspiration come from?

Riaz: I've always been a big fan of coffee table photography books.

Lynda: Me too.

Riaz: And so, I'd always go into like my local bookshops and just like spend ages in there just looking at the books, the way they were composed and just like the topics of the books.

And it was a couple years ago now, where I started to see a lot of these kind of style of books dedicated to London and British culture. And more often than not, they would always completely like ignore or avoid Caribbean and West African culture in the conversations so that there'd be food guidebooks around London or East London, and they'd have no black people in them at all.

And I always thought that books are so powerful that in a hundred years’ time when people look back, if these books are the only ones that exist, people are going to think that we were never here.

And so, I just thought like I could try my hand at trying to remedy that because I'm not one to ask other people for inclusion. I'd like rather go out and just like try and make it happen in myself.

Lynda: Amen.

Riaz: And that was, yeah, that was the genesis of it.

Catherine: Brilliant, brilliant.

Lynda: I also think because I do enjoy cooking and I love watching cooking shows and reading cookery books, that sort of thing. But I always think that when English people, British people make something that's tasty, they make such a big deal out of it.

Whereas Caribbean food, our food's always tasty from frying an egg to how we do our baked beans. It has flavour, it tastes great. We don't have anything that's bland, do we?

We don't even write our recipes down. We just know. We can tell by taste our hand, our eye. It's not such a big deal, but I think we need to like how you are, make a big deal out of it and celebrate it so people realise how we live, how we cook and how it's in our veins really, isn't it?

Riaz: Yeah. I remember reading this joke on Twitter about how Europe colonised the world for its spices and barely uses them. And that has always stuck with me, like all that trade.

Lynda: Yeah, yeah, it’s so true.

Riaz: To get all the spices from like India and parts of Asia, and they barely made it into like common British cook. I mean, it's changed over the years for sure, but still, it's quite ironic.

Catherine: I found when I first arrived in 1958, people were sprinkling their salt and pepper on top of everything. So, any seasoning was put on top of the food, not pre-seasoning the way that we do, and leaving it overnight to marinate. And I think that helps the sweetness that we referred to our food is always sweet, tasty.

Riaz: Yeah, long seasonings.

Catherine: That's right.

Lynda: I know that you grew up in London and you now live over in Berlin. Did you take your Dutch pots with you?

Riaz: I did, yeah, when I moved. I don't have too much stuff, so fortunately, in my suitcase I was able to pack a bunch of stuff. And it was interesting because I've kind of in a different way, felt a connection to my family who had like packed their suitcases and moved from like the Caribbean to England in the same way that when I moved from England to there, I had like my suitcase and I packed like tins of ackee and tins of callaloo, and I had my Dutch pot in there, and I had like all-purpose seasoning and curry powder.

Lynda: And how is it? Is it quite easy to get Caribbean ingredients and food stuffs in Berlin?

Riaz: Well, yeah, because the thing I tried to point out in my writing about Caribbean food is people think that it's this kind of alien culture in a vacuum. But when you look at the fabric of what makes the Caribbean, West African, Indian, Chinese, parts of Europe, parts of Latin America …

When you branch out, you realise all these ingredients are utilised by all those other cultures in the same way or maybe different ways, but the existence of those ingredients are universal across those regions.

So, while there's no like Caribbean grocery shops in the same way we have in England, but using a combination of the West African shops, the Indian shops, the Chinese and Vietnamese shops, I’m pretty much able to find everything apart from ackee.

Catherine: Right, right. But it's very similar to what it was like when we, the Windrush generation arrived in England. We got a lot of our stuffs from continental shops (they were called in those days) because they were similar to what we were accustomed to.

And then eventually, Asian food stores and Caribbean’s food stores and now, there's a plethora of West African food stores. So, yeah, we are in a very privileged position nowadays, but those early days, it was, “I want some rice.”

And all you got when you went to an English shop in the forties and fifties and asked for rice was pudding rice — rice pudding for making rice pudding. And when you asked for peas, you've got green peas instead of kidney beans or anything like that.

Lynda: So, we're nearing the end of our podcast. We always like to end the podcast with a saying. Do you have any family sayings or sayings that you think would be good to round up our conversation today?

Riaz: Off the top of my head, I can't remember any of the sayings. They were never like sayings. It was like always remarks.

So, one thing I just remember, every house saying was like, adult shouting to kids, “You're too fast!” And that's always stuck in my head like no matter … whatever the topic, whatever you're trying to do, you're trying to like go into the pot to get some food, like you're trying to move something too quickly.

You're trying to act up, you're trying to talk in a certain way, that was just every auntie just like had that saying. Yeah, I think I love those full circle moments because now, I'm older and they're younger kids in the family.

Like I find myself getting really irate by the things they do and telling them the same things, and I'm like, oh, this is how you become like an auntie and uncle.

Lynda: Yeah. It's so true. I'm always saying to my niece and nephew, 7 and 12, “Stop fussing up yourself.” It's so true. You become your parents, don't you?

Riaz: Yeah, yeah.

Catherine: But that saying of yours, I think, is really interesting because when that's said to a child, they're in a process of discovery and long leave the fact that children will push boundaries and try and learn. And there's a lot that we have learned from you today about food. And so, thank you very much for that.

Riaz: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

[Music Playing]

Lynda: I love that Riaz didn't have a saying, (more of a command), but it's one that I remember daddy saying to me, “You're too fast, you're too fast.” It really sheds light on Caribbean parenting.

Catherine: Yes, Caribbean parenting is a case traditionally of tough love, but it's also of much love.

[Music Playing]

Lynda: So, sadly, that's all we have time for today. We really hope that you have either learnt something, reminisce with us, or at the very least, got a little bit hungry.

Catherine: Or all three.

Lynda: Don't forget to like and subscribe wherever you listen to your podcast. And if you have a moment or two, we'd love a review.

Catherine: Yes, they really help to spread the word.

Lynda: Tune in next week when we'll be speaking to Jocelyn Chandler Hawkins about her objek or ting.

Catherine: It's something that might help you find your way when lost.

Lynda: But until next time, bye-bye.

Catherine: Bye.