Speakers: Catherine Ross, Lynda-Louise Burrell & Dawn-Maria France
[Music Playing]
Riaz: My mother's Dutch pot.
Jocelyn: A poster, which is a map of Barbados.
Female: My grandmother's suitcase.
Lenny: A flyer with the sound system on it.
Catherine: We all have one of those objects, don't we?
Lynda: Something so sentimental. We've had it for years.
Catherine: And losing or break breaking it is not an option.
Lynda: These objects tell a story about us.
Catherine: About our lives, upbringing and family.
Lynda: And for Caribbeans whose stories are so often left untold, we are bringing these stories to the fore.
Riaz: They're just pots on a surface level, but they're kind of loaded in history.
Lenny: These flyers would've been going back to the 70s, so it brings back great memories.
Catherine: This is Objeks & Tings.
Lynda: A podcast celebrating Caribbeans and their favourite tings. Episode seven, Ebony, no ivory.
Hello and welcome to Objeks & Tings, the show that celebrates 75 years of Caribbeans in the UK through the objects they treasure most. I'm Lynda Burrell.
Catherine: And I'm Catherine Ross, together we are founders of Museumand, a mother-daughter led Caribbean Heritage Museum. And as this year mark's 75 years since the Windrush came to British shores, we are sharing Caribbean stories louder than ever before by starting this podcast.
Lynda: Each week we invite a different person with Caribbean heritage on to the show. We ask them to talk about an object they couldn't live without.
Catherine: And through this object we hear stories of their lives, personalities, and upbringing.
Lynda: And family, don't forget family, mum.
Catherine: Yes, one thing we've been noticing on this podcast is how quickly discussion about an object can lead into discussion about one's nearest and dearest, especially if the object is highly sentimental.
Lynda: And today's no exception. But before we get into our guest’s object and family, probably best to introduce them first. Today's guest is Dawn-Maria France.
[Music Playing]
Dawn: My name's Dawn-Maria, I'm an editor of a news-led magazine called Yorkshire Women's Life.
Catherine: Like us Dawn-Maria loves human interest stories and so being an editor on Yorkshire Women's Life is a job she adores.
Dawn: I'm also a broadcaster and children's author.
So, Yorkshire Women's Life is a news-led magazine. I started with the magazine 23 years ago having said, “Oh, I'll do the magazine, I'll be part of this journey for six months.” But here I am 23 years later, loving every minute of that whole journey and enjoying the ride.
Catherine: As a magazine editor, what do you think Dawn-Maria's object could be? I warn you, it's so easy, if you don't guess it in one, I might have to disown you.
Lynda: The pressure, so I think because Dawn-Maria is a magazine editor, she might be speaking about a magazine today.
Catherine: Well-done, you'll be relieved to hear, I won't be disowning you anytime soon.
Dawn: The object that I'm talking about today is a magazine called Ebony. So, Ebony is an African American intellectual lifestyle magazine. It was founded in 1945 by John H. Johnson of Chicago.
And Johnson wanted a magazine which was a news and photo magazine, very much like Life Magazine, but specifically designed for African American readers.
Ebony Magazine was given to me by my mum because she was sick and tired of the narrative of my school.
So, at my school as a young child from Caribbean parents, I was told that I would not achieve anything. I was told that I was a victim of my colour, and I couldn't achieve my dream to be a writer, broadcaster, or a journalist.
So, my mum went out of her way to find a magazine which showed black people in a very positive light. I think I started looking at the magazine when I was about nine. I remember my mum bringing it, and I remember sitting on the floor just flicking through it thinking, “Wow, these people look like me, these women are glamorous.”
Because at the time, the only images of black women on the telly were of women being subservient, being overweight, being mommy figures. And here were this magazine where women were slim and attractive of all shades, of all colours, with different hair textures, looking absolutely amazing.
And I couldn't stop flicking the pages and thinking, “Wow, they look exactly like me. They're ambitious. One of them wants to be a journalist. Well, I want to be a journalist too, so let me just read about her. What's she doing and how’s she going towards her goal?” It was just absolutely amazing.
The particular edition that I'm talking about today is February 1979. In this issue they had a big splash about the African American Black Achievement Awards and Ebony paid tribute to 55 honourees on a nationwide TV show.
So, it had people like Mohammed Ali, it also had John H. Johnson as well, he was a publisher and editor of Ebony. And I've never seen that in any magazine in my entire life at that point.
And it was great to see Ebony giving a nod to these people and saying, “Well-done you, you are trailblazers. You are doing something positive; you are role models even if you don't realise it.”
The magazines that I saw when I was growing up, particularly Ebony, inspired me to push forward as a writer, fundamentally. I wanted to be a writer since I was about four, and these magazines pushed me forward.
I'm inspired by the way these people write, I'm inspired by the stories they tell, and this is what I want to do for the rest of my life.
The magazine allowed me to get in touch with my Caribbean heritage simply because there were people who looked like me. And in quite a few additions it did have people who were Caribbean, who then went to live in the States. So, there was that connection there.
I was able to connect to their lived experience because my parents left the Caribbean to come to England. And I was able to relate from my own family journey to their journey and read about their life and read about what they went through and how they overcame it and how they went on to achieve things because that was exactly what was happening to my parents.
My mum's efforts to provide me with positive role models have worked. I have become a writer, I have become a journalist, I have won awards. My mum's incredibly proud of me, I'm proud of myself.
I know that I'm my own queen, I straighten my own crown. It's not a question of someone else writing my story, it's about me writing my own life story. And I'm grateful for having Ebony to guide me through that journey.
Lynda: Wow, Dawn-Maria’s mum sounds almost as great as mine.
Catherine: Aw, thank you.
Lynda: She really is a fierce and purposeful woman, isn't she?
Catherine: Yes, she wanted Dawn-Maria to be black and proud and wow, haven't her efforts paid off? I have to say it was a smart move to introduce Dawn-Maria to those American magazines at such a young age.
Americans have always worn their blackness with pride, which is something I think us Brits could learn from.
Lynda: Too true, say it loud, we're black Brits and proud. Pride is a theme I really wanted to explore in this episode and luckily Dawn-Maria has a lot of it.
Hello, Dawn-Maria, how are you doing?
Dawn: I'm fine, thank you, how are you?
Lynda: Really well.
Catherine: Hi, it's Catherine.
Dawn: Hi Catherine.
Lynda: Great, so let's get started. Where are your parents from and how did they meet?
Dawn: So, my dad is originally from St. Martin. He went over to St. Kitts because he wanted to be a photographer and my mum's from Nevis and because my dad was the island photographer, that's how they met.
They met in Nevis when he was going around the island just taking photographs on assignments from various publications that he worked for.
Lynda: Now, I must say, obviously, us being in the museum, we talk to a lot of people, take lots of oral histories, but I've never heard about a photographer back in the Caribbean. Whether they're doing something artistic or for the government. So, this is really exciting and special, and plus we possibly are related.
Dawn: We probably are.
Lynda: After this podcast, we'll look into that.
Dawn: Absolutely, I'd be up for that.
Lynda: But I'll let Catherine, my mum explain a bit more about how we are related.
Catherine: Right, that's because I'm from St. Kitts, both my parents were from St. Kitts, so that's the link. And then we obviously travelled across to Nevis because it's not that far away, just across a bit of water.
Lynda: You could stop across.
Catherine: Right, but after such an exotic place, why did they settle in Yorkshire?
Dawn: Well, what happened was after the second World War, the British government went to the Caribbean to recruit. It was like a graduate recruitment fair, if you are familiar with that.
So, they wanted people from the Caribbean to come back to England and to help build England back after the Second World War, so I think that's what appealed to my parents. And they already had family in Yorkshire, so it was easier to come to someone that was already in Yorkshire to start their life.
Lynda: I've never had anyone describe it like that, but I know a few companies from the UK did go over to certain parts of the Caribbean to recruit for certain industries. So, does that mean that your parents worked for those industries? Which part were they again mum?
Catherine: Well, it was mainly either the British Rail or it was London Transport.
Dawn: My mum actually worked for the local government at the time. And so, she went to one of their recruitment fairs, which was orchestrated by the British government. And my dad was just interested as well, just to come over. He went to the recruitment fair as well. And he was keen to travel because he had the love for photography.
Lynda: Great, great. And what did they do when they reached England?
Dawn: So, my dad, he worked in engineering. My mum went to art college, which was quite difficult at the time, and then she became an art lecturer. And what she did was she took her Caribbean influences and lectured in Caribbean arts, in schools, colleges. And she worked largely with a lot of deprived communities.
Lynda: And what year was all this going on?
Dawn: Oh, she started doing it in the 60s right up to now.
Lynda: That's amazing.
Dawn: Yeah, she's done some installations for the 75th anniversary of Windrush. So, she's been doing art for a very long time.
Lynda: Fantastic. So, in that case then, people have been teaching Caribbean studies in some way in school, in education spaces. So, yeah, we need to see more of that even today because it's feels like it's just starting, but obviously it's been happening since the 60s, which is great to hear.
Catherine: Yeah, she's a real trailblazer in the real sense of the word, I'm amazed and impressed.
Lynda: And what about your grandparents, where were they from?
Dawn: So, my grandparents are originally from Mumbai. And what happened was the British went over to Mumbai and was saying to the people in Mumbai that they could go over to the Caribbean to be indentured servants.
So, indentured servants were like carers for the families, like nannies and so on. So, there were domestic servants.
But when they went to the Caribbean, they were actually tricked. So, instead of being nannies and cooks, they were actually tricked into slavery. By that time, they had no way of going back to Mumbai financially or otherwise.
Catherine: Yeah, there were two kinds of people in the Caribbean islands, the enslaved, and then with the indentured workers who were brought over from Asia. And they were brought there for a period of time, 5 to 10 years. And then they could go back if they wished to, or they could stay there.
And it wasn't slavery with hard work, it was never meant to be like that, just as you said. But what the indentured workers seemed to do was create small businesses, make it commercial as opposed to what Caribbeans were doing, which were cottage industries, just to supplement their income, they started commercial concerns.
Lynda: And going back to the magazine, do you know how your mum discovered it and were they expensive?
Dawn: The magazine was about one pound, 25 at the time, whereas the other magazines, which were largely white magazines for white women were about 25 pence at the time. So, my mum did have to spend extra to buy that magazine.
And that reminds me of when I was young, and my mum used to put my hair in plaits with beads. And because it was largely a white working-class school, I was a bit of a curiosity to the white children because they'd never seen anyone with the hair in plaits before.
But Ebony had a spread of young children with the hair in plaits, and once I saw that I was able to go to school with my hair in plaits and be proud of my hair, my mum's decision and the way I looked, knowing that I could see other children who looked like me in the Ebony Magazine.
Catherine: It’s really true, if you see yourself in, it makes such a difference.
Dawn: One of my favourite memories is that my mum used to save, and she used to take me and the children in the neighbourhood to the theatre. And being my mum, she used to pay for the best seats in the theatre. And she used to get looked on.
People used to look on her as if to say, “How are these black people coming into the theatre?” And my mum used to sort of push her chest out as if to say, “We belong here.”
But it was really great that she used to save up to get the best boxes and to take myself and other children in the neighbourhood to various programs at the theatre.
She took us to the operas, which I hated by the way, she doesn't know that. But she still exposed myself and children in the neighbourhood to opera, to different kinds of theatre and different kind of arts.
And I saw someone recently who said that they really respected my mum for saving as much as she could to take us to the theatre, to take us to the opera, to take us to the art gallery because it was so good to be exposed to the arts. And that's fundamentally something that I really respect her for.
For introducing all of us to a different life, to breaking those stereotypes and not caring that she was looked at when she went into the theatre. Because she had said to all of us, “We belong here, this is a space that we all need to inherit, and this is a space for growth.”
Catherine: Yeah, as I said earlier on, your mum's a real trailblazer, and this story again just confirms that, can't say that enough. And communities are very grateful to people like her who did something different, who'd made sure that our children, our community, were able to establish themselves and show that they were a creative group.
Lynda: We were invited here after all, so there's no space that should be off limits to us. But saying that, Dawn-Maria, your mum sounds a lot like my own, to be honest, strong, courageous character.
Can you describe her for us, her personality, her dress. I know she's got her chest out and she's proud, but what else was she like or is she like?
Dawn: My mum was the type of person and she's still the type of person now, even though she's advanced in her age. She never let any barriers put her off, she went to art school in the 50s, 60s.
It was a very snobby environment. The people at the art school were largely middle class. They didn't have anything to do with this woman from Nevis, this small island woman as they saw her. But she was determined to do her art class.
A lot of the times when she's put on exhibition, she's the only person of colour to have the exhibition. She's very proud of Nevis and Saint Kitts.
If she could get a T-shirt that says I am proud of Nevis and Saint Kitts, she probably would. She's very, very strong and she's just so proud of being a black woman. She has her hair naturally, she doesn't care.
She is unapologetically proud and unapologetically proud as a Caribbean woman. And she knows where she's coming from, and she knows where she's heading. And I love that strength in her. I love that confidence and that tenacity that she's got.
Catherine: How about you, when did you first know you wanted to be a journalist?
Dawn: I think I always knew, I'd watch black and white films with my mum and dad where there'd be white men in America largely, because it was black and white films from America. And they'd have people in the press room with typewriter as it was then. And they'd have their press cards in their caps.
And I remember very earlier on, I must have been about five, pointing to these characters where it was all white men of a certain age in a press room and saying to my mum, “I really want to do that. I really want to be like one of those men, I want to get a press card and so on.”
And I think my mum, she always read to me. I remember sitting on her lap, she'd read to me, I'd read to her. My mum went out of her way to get empty books where I could write. So, there'd be pages and pages of blank sheets where I could just express myself.
And my mum would always encourage me to read and write. The house my dad said was like a library. He said nobody in the neighbourhood had as many books as me. But when I was nine, my mum took me back to Saint Kitts.
So, I went to see my great-great uncle Joseph Nathaniel France, and he was a journalist, and he was also a politician. So, my mum had thought, “Well if Dawn-Maria really wants to be a journalist, let me take her to someone in the family who's doing it.”
So, I remember sitting with this great man, who was telling me, “Yes, I think you've got the making of a journalist,” because my nine-year-old self wouldn't stop asking this man questions and so on.
And he was like, “Yes,” he said to my mum, “She's got what it takes, she's asking questions, she's clearly bright, encourage her down that route.” And that's when I knew. I knew from about five that I wanted to write.
My aunt who's no longer with us, said that when I was five, she corrected some of my grammar, and she said the look that my five-year-old self gave her as if to say, “Don't you dare touch my words.”
Lynda: Do you think that because you wanted to be a journalist, a writer from such a young age, is that why you also wanted to write children's books?
Dawn: I think when I was growing up, my mum went out of her way like the detective she is, and she got some children's books from Nevis. But when the books came, instead of being about the Caribbean, they were about America, I think my mum was put out.
And I remember thinking, I really want to write children's books because I used to be a youth worker and when I was a youth worker, I worked in some of the poorest areas, this is before I became a journalist.
And I always looked for really positive books for my children that were in my charge. And I couldn't find any books that said, “Yes, it's okay to be a working class, it's okay to be a strong little girl,” there was none of those books.
The books that were on offer, they were largely middle-class books. And I really had that seed of I want to write a children's book where the characters is a strong northern little girl who's unapologetically strong, who knows her own mind, who has her own thoughts. And so, I set about doing that.
It took me years because I did the research and I worked with lots of children's organisations and parents to make sure that I got the right tone of the books.
And it was something I wanted to do from very young and also reinforce as a youth worker because there's not many books where their main characters are strong little girl and there's not many books for children that are northern as well.
As a writer I felt it was something that I wanted to pursue. And I was glad when the books got published because it felt like I'd achieved something that I'd longed to do for a very long time.
Lynda: That’s fantastic, congratulations to you.
Catherine: Yeah, you shared with us a lot of your mother's love and care and support during your life, but also of your extended family. And I think although we are hearing about that, I think there's a general message that you are sending out that parents and our extended family need to support our young people.
If they think we can, we will. Because we can always go back to them, and they will encourage us to keep going forward.
Lynda: So, we always like to end the show with a saying. Do you have one that your mum has passed down to you or just a favourite saying that you can share with us today?
Dawn: There's one that both myself and my mum likes. I'll paraphrase it, it was by Gandhi and it's, I will not let anyone with dirty feet walk in my head.
Lynda: I love that.
Catherine: Yeah, not heard that one before, but it’s one I'll be using.
Lynda: And to make it more Caribbean, I would say, “Don't let yuh dirty foot touch me head.”
Dawn: Yeah, I agree, I second that.
Lynda: Sorry, Gandhi. Thank you so much Dawn-Maria, it was lovely to meet you. I'm actually looking forward to meeting your mum. So, we have to set up a St. Kitts and Nevis day when we all can get together.
Dawn: Oh yeah.
Lynda: So, until we next see you, bye-bye.
Catherine: Bye.
Dawn: Thanks for having me again, bye, take care.
Lynda: A big thank you to Dawn-Maria's mum for reminding me not to let people with dirty feet walk in my head.
Catherine: Yes, some sage advice there, and what a lovely episode this has been. I feel so empowered and proud to be who I am.
[Music Playing]
Lynda: Well, you should be, I think you're great. We all need to acknowledge those who empower and support us.
Catherine: Very true. So, that's nearly it from us, except to say do get in touch if you've been listening.
Lynda: You can find us at Museumand on Twitter and at Museumand_ on Instagram.
Catherine: We'll be back next week when we'll be speaking to fashion designer Tihara Smith. We'll find out about the creative way she celebrates the Windrush generation.
Lynda: Yes, and if you're like me, a fashion lover, this episode's for you, but until then, bye-bye.
Catherine: Bye.