Speakers: Catherine Ross, Lynda-Louise Burrell, & Demi Bailey-Paul
[Music Playing]
Riaz: My mother's Dutch pot.
Jocelyn: A poster, which is a map of Barbados.
Female: My grandmother's suitcase.
Lenny: A flyer with a sound system on it.
Catherine: We all have one of those objects, don't we?
Lynda: Something so sentimental, we've had it for years.
Catherine: And losing or breaking it is not an option.
Lynda: These objects tell a story about us.
Catherine: About our lives, upbringing, and family.
Lynda: And for Caribbeans whose stories are so often left untold, we are bringing these stories to the fore.
Riaz: They're just pots on a surface level, but they're kind of loaded in history.
Lenny: These flyers would've been going back to the seventies, so it brings back great memories.
Catherine: This is Objeks & Tings,
Lynda: A podcast celebrating Caribbeans and their favourite tings.
Catherine: Episode six, “A ticket into existence.”
Lynda: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Objeks & Tings. I'm Lynda Burrell, the daughter of …
Catherine: Me, Catherine Ross, and together, we are the National Caribbean Heritage Museum, Museumand.
Lynda: Museumand is on a mission to share Caribbean stories throughout the UK with our exhibitions. And this year, we're celebrating 75 years of the Windrush coming to British shores by launching this podcast.
Catherine: Yes, we Caribbeans have done a lot for the UK, whether that's helping to rebuild it after the second World War or bringing vibrancy and colour with our music, food, and culture. And this is the podcast that celebrates that.
Lynda: And because we're museum owners, we know only too well the power of objects to elicit memories. So, each week, we speak to a different person about a different object that speaks to their Caribbean roots in one way or another.
And then we use these objects as a springboard to talk about their life more generally.
Catherine: Yes, it's amazing what you can learn about someone from an object.
Lynda: Or a ting.
So, this week we have Demi Bailey-Paul on the show.
Demi: So, my name's Demi, and I'm a multifaceted journalist who loves audio, loves music, and loves podcasts.
Lynda: Demi's got grandparents from all across the Caribbean. Her dad's parents are from Dominica and St. Lucia. And her mum's parents — well, I'll let her explain.
Demi: My grandpa is from a small town in Jamaica called St. Ann's. And then my nan, so she's from an island in the Caribbean called Saint Kitts and Nevis.
It's kind of funny because Jamaican people have this rivalry thing with different islands. Because their island is the biggest, they always look down on small island people, and they call them small island. So, it's like, “Yuh man, I met a small island girl,” and all these things like that.
Catherine: You know, being from Saint Kitts, I'm a small island girl too.
Lynda: And as you are from Saint Kitts and daddy was from Jamaica, does that make me a medium island girl?
Catherine: You can be whatever you want to be, Lynda.
Lynda: So, normally, this is a part where you make me guess what our guest’s object would be, but the tables have turned, and this week, I'm going to get you to guess what our guest’s object is, and see how you like it.
Catherine: Okay, hit me.
Lynda: As part of our job, this is something we have to collect on a daily basis.
Catherine: Paperwork.
Lynda: Not quite, but close.
Catherine: Receipts.
Lynda: Got it, into.
Catherine: Not bad for the first time.
Lynda: But this is a very particular receipt, so I'll let Demi explain.
Demi: The object I have chosen today is the receipt of the ticket from the boat that my grandpa took from Jamaica to come to London for the first time during the Windrush in the 1960s.
The receipt is really important to me because I look at it as almost the starting point of the reason why I even exist and the reason why my mum's also here. And it's the journey of my life as a second-generation Caribbean in London.
So, the receipt is not like your normal receipt at all, it's completely different. It's probably like one third of an A4 piece of paper. The colour has turned a little bit into a yellowish colour. So, at the top of it, it says tentative departure date on the 18th of April 1961.
And then as you go further down on the receipt, it says received from Victor Bailey, (and Victor Bailey is my grandpa's name) for the sum of £75 and 12 shillings and 0 pence. So, that was the price of the ticket, and it has a stamp on it to validate the ticket and then also, a signature at the bottom.
Yeah, £75 at the time was really, really expensive. It's almost like one of those things that you would save up for probably months and months and months to get that sum of money and you're paying for your life to change, like a one-way ticket for your life to change.
And from that, my grandpa coming over to this country, he was able to meet my grandma. My nan was really well-educated and my grandpa, the completely opposite. So, my nan went to a private school, so she's Scottish and black. So, it was quite a rare thing back in the days to be “mixed race.”
And my grandpa, he was a little bit rough back then, he's from the country and he's from Jamaica, and he has no skill other than being a carpenter. And my nan is really high class, and if they both hadn't come to this country then, my mum wouldn't have been made, and then I wouldn't have been made. So, yeah, it's quite the story.
So, my grandpa, he's really, really confident and he had a lot of friends. He was really, really popular. He'd always be the life of the party. He's got a gold tooth. I feel like every Jamaican's got a gold tooth, it's just a thing.
So, he's got a gold tooth and he's got a really bellowing laugh that is really contagious. It's probably one of the funniest laughs I've actually heard. And when he laughs, he rolls back in his chair and he's doing all of this head shaking and he's definitely a comedian.
He loves to make people laugh. He really enjoys making people laugh. And I think that's also where I get my humour from. And in terms of how he dresses, what my grandpa wears is definitely even till today's quintessential Windrush attire to a T, with the felt hat, the top hat, and the waistcoat and the trousers, and the proper shoes. That’s how you present yourself if you’re Jamaican.
They have a lot of pride in what they wear, and they have a lot of pride in being Jamaican. It's really important to them.
I feel really grateful that my grandpa held onto this because he's 84 now, and he came to this country when he was 21, 22. And the fact that he still has it, I feel really grateful to be able to look at this and it's reminds me of my culture.
And when I look at it, I have a lot of emotions and it makes me think about my culture and how far we've come and what a long journey it's been for us to even be here and coexist in the same space as everybody else.
Catherine: Wow, a receipt, I can't believe Demi's grandad has still got it. I love objects from the past in all shapes and sizes, but there is something about papers and documents that really speaks to me. Maybe it’s the old-fashioned penmanship.
As a former teacher, I love going back in time and reading documents and letters where people really knew how to write.
Lynda: I know what you mean, and I love this idea of this receipt being part of the reason Demi exists. With her granddad meeting her grandma in the UK, she's literally holding her ticket into existence in her hands.
It's staggering when you think about it. We caught up with Demi to find out more.
Hi yuh, hi Demi.
Demi: Hi.
Lynda: I have to ask you, I have to ask you first, is it Demi or Deme?
Demi: So, it is actually pronounced Demi because I'm named after Demi Moore the actress, who my mum was a massive fan of in the eighties.
Lynda: Me too.
Demi: But over time, I've just said to everybody who I meet in person, that it’s actually Demi. Just because I feel like Deme never actually sticks with people. So, family is Demi, my friend is Demi.
Lynda: But if you got everybody to listen to our podcast, then you can teach them how to say your name properly.
Demi: Exactly, I feel like it's actually a bit of a secret, I don't think my friends actually know that it's actually Demi, so yeah.
Catherine: Alright, this receipt, it's such a treasure, I can't believe your granddad still has it. Can you talk us through how you found it?
Demi: Yes, absolutely. So, I was telling him that I was going to be doing this podcast and I feel like he felt a bit excited, like it's got something to do. Like he's retired now, so this is a bit exciting for him.
And I told him, and I was thinking, what can he give me that it's going to be of significance that I can bring to this podcast? And he was like, “Yuh man, yuh man, me still have a receipt from when we did come over.” And I was like, “Wait, really?” He was like, “Yuh man, yuh man, when you're ready, come take it.”
Lynda: Can I ask actually, where did your granddad find it? Where was it in the house?
Demi: I didn't actually ask him where he found it, but he's just one of those people who has everything, but he will know where it is. Like that old thing where if you're looking for something, your parents would have it under the bed? He is that sort of person.
Lynda: That’s exactly it. I was wondering if he kept it in his grip or in his glass cabinet. I wondered where it would be.
Demi: Yeah, because we have brown cabinets. I feel like it's a very Caribbean thing to have brown, sort of glossy cabinets with just every document you've ever had. You never throw things away just in case. So, I think it was probably in there.
Lynda: Very good. So, the receipt says the price of the ticket was £75. Now, that doesn't sound like much in today's standards, but actually, when you look into inflation, that's the equivalent of about, I was looking this up — I think it was about £1,700 today. It's a lot of money.
Demi: It is a lot of money. And when he said it was £75, I was like, “Oh wait, only £75,” I'm thinking that's really cheap. I was thinking that's a bargain in today's world.
And then when I was speaking to him about the cost of it, he said that it was really, really expensive to even collect that money at the time, was quite a big thing back then.
Lynda: Yeah, I can imagine. And how did he raise the funds?
Demi: So, he said that there are a number of ways that people from his parish, because he's from St. Ann's, which is in the country in Jamaica. So, there's a few things that people would do.
So, he, for example, his stepdad helped him raise the money with what people would call pardners, which is something I learned very recently. I had no idea about it.
Which is a group of men in your circle, your trusty circle that you trust with your money, and they deal with anything financial. And every time you get your salary, you would put a bit into the pardner, and they'd help it go towards things that you needed. So, a bit of that.
And then he said some other people on his island would sell some land or sell their animals and stuff like that. So, yeah, it's a number of ways, but I think it's over months that they would raise the money to get this ticket.
Lynda: That’s really interesting actually. And just to let you know, actually it wasn't just men that did pardner, it was actually women that started it. I’ll let my mum come in here with a little bit about pardner.
Catherine: Yeah, it is a very popular community savings scheme. But what I like about it as a historian, it's come all the way from Africa.
So, we brought it with us when we were enslaved and taken to the Caribbean, and it's even used here in the UK. That way, we can save up for the big things in life or just the fun things in life as well. You know, all those cruises we go on.
Lynda: I do pardner actually, and I'm not sure if I'm going to-
Demi: Oh, do you?
Lynda: Yeah, I still do it. And I'm not sure if I'm going to go back to the Caribbean holiday next year or buy a handbag. I'm weighing it out up.
Demi: Decisions … decisions.
Catherine: Get an idea of how much she spends on handbags then.
Lynda: Priorities.
Demi: Oh God.
Catherine: But in 1948, when the original or the first lot of the Windrush generation came over, the cost of the ticket was £28 and 10 shillings. So, by the time your granddad came, and it was 75.
Demi: That's mad.
Catherine: Twice, isn't it?
Lynda: What? It went up a lot, man, in that time.
Catherine: There must be a story.
Demi: Yeah, I don’t know why it jumped to that amount. I mean, to be fair, I can probably make a logical guess; more people wanted to come, so they upped the price. That's sort of how it goes, doesn't it?
Lynda: That’s a nice way of saying it, or maybe they didn't really want us here, so they put the price up so well.
Demi: Wow, that as well. Well, we all know the story there.
Catherine: Did your granddad ever go back to Jamaica?
Demi: Yeah, he's been back twice, and so he went back once because he was going to build a house apparently. So, he went back to do that, and I think also just to see what work there was in Jamaica. And then he came back, and then he went back again.
And then he said that when he came back from the second time, he said he would never go back again.
Lynda: Really?
Demi: Yeah, he said that it's almost like people didn't view him as Jamaican anymore when he came back. I think there was a lot of jealousy there and just ignorance and people would call him Englishman, call him the Englishman, the Englishman.
And apparently, his accent got weaker and all these things. So, I felt like he felt a bit shunned by his own people. So, didn't really have a place to go back to in Jamaica and people would steal from him as well.
Lynda: Yeah, that happens a lot, doesn't it?
Catherine: And that was so hard really because a lot of us came only for a period of time, and then we were going to go back home, and build houses and start businesses and so on. But it's funny how people's attitudes can change in 5 to 10 years.
Demi: Absolutely, it's really interesting.
Catherine: And that your granddad managed to lose a little bit of his accent.
Demi: Apparently, even though till this day, I still can't really understand. So, I'm just thinking, well how strong is it meant to be? Because sometimes, I catch myself saying, what? Do you know what I mean?
Catherine: And when I try to speak Patwa, let's say, people laugh at me and say, “Don't try, it doesn't sound right,” it sounds very English when I say words, so yeah.
Lynda: But obviously, you came when you were seven, your accent would've definitely changed in that time, you know.
Catherine: Yeah, it did. Both of my parents are from Saint Kitts and-
Demi: Oh, my nan's from Saint Kitts.
Catherine: Best Island, best Island.
Lynda: That's not true. Mum, you are from Saint Kitts, you came at seven.
Catherine: And I'm from Saint Kitts too, I'm flying the flag for Saint Kitts.
Demi: Oh, I love that. I love it, we have to support the full island.
Catherine: Oh, well done, I like you. But then we moved to the Midlands in Nottingham. And as Lynda was saying, I was seven when I arrived, so it was quicker for a child to pick up the local accent.
But then when I'm with my community and I get teased because I just can't speak Patwa. Do you know what I mean?
Lynda: I love those because obviously before the museum, you worked a lot with the Windrush generation, and I love how they can go from speaking pure Patwa into the local dialect wherever they live.
So, going from Patwa into local Nottingham slang, it's amazing. All in the same sentence, you get every major-
Demi: I know, it's incredible.
Lynda: So, have you ever been to the Caribbean yourself?
Demi: I've actually never been. That's everyone's reaction when I tell them.
Lynda: Especially being Kittitian because my dad was Jamaican and obviously my mum's from Saint Kitts. Saint Kitts is … all the Caribbean's beautiful. But Saint Kitts is so small, it's like a jewel, it's beautiful. You can get around the whole island in-
Demi: A day.
Lynda: Yeah, you can. How'd you know that?
Demi: My mum told me.
Lynda: That's what my grandmother did when she was having mum. She walked around the whole island, and then she had-
Catherine: Labour pains. I could be born anywhere on the island as she travelled with me.
Demi: Exactly, it's so small and so sacred.
Lynda: Beautiful.
Demi: But yeah, I've never been.
Lynda: Well, because I'm saving with my pardner. You start saving with your pardner and we can go together next year.
Demi: Actually, I'd love to, I'd love to go to all of the islands I'm from, like I would really love to go.
Catherine: I wanted to tease you or to alert you. You know your granddad’s called an Englishman. Well, don't do what we did when I went back after 30 years of being in Britain, I then decided my children were old enough for me to take them back. So, we went to Saint Kitts.
But I was doing some research at the time. I got the grant to go and do some history research, so I took my children. And because I was there to do meetings and be officious and whatever, I used to be walking fast minding my own business. People would shout, “English, English,” because I was walking.
Lynda: Or slow down, slow down.
Catherine: Slow down.
Lynda: Slow down
Catherine: Slow down, you don’t walk that fast.
Demi: Wait what?
Lynda: Just walking.
Demi: I've never heard of that before.
Lynda: Yeah, you have to walk slow and take your time.
Demi: Okay.
Catherine: You get there if you get there, whatever. So, don't give yourself away, just walk slowly.
Demi: Okay, yeah. I feel like my grandpa would give me a survival or some sort of survival list of what to do and what not to do if I was to ever go.
Catherine: Can you tell me a little bit about why your granddad came to the UK?
Demi: So, I think he came for work, he was a carpenter. So, obviously, when the whole Windrush movement came about, obviously they got invited to the country, and they were under British War at the time.
So, he got invited. So, he accepted the invitation, I think that was probably the reason why.
And I can only imagine when you're from Jamaica and you haven't been anywhere else, and then you get a call to say, “Come into Britain,” it's probably an amazing … all the feelings you must feel, all the excitement.
So, it's a bit of an adventure. And I think he must have been 21 or 22 at the time. So, if you have never left your country and been asked to come across seas to England, it's like all these things at once an adventure, work and new experience.
Lynda: Well, the streets will be paved with gold, there's money to be made.
Demi: You know what I mean? It's almost like I can imagine it being like the Wizard of Oz. You're following that yellow brick road to this-
Catherine: Land of opportunity and why wouldn’t you.
Demi: Land of opportunity and the embolden green city of — like that sort of fantasy that you have in your head as well. I can imagine him thinking and other people.
Catherine: Well, if you start from people hearing about the invitation and then getting together to plan. We're going to sell this piece of land, we're going to sell these animals, we're going to save in a pardner — the whole community or people around you would be mobilised to let one of their number at least go and experience this land of opportunity.
And I was surprised that it was on the ship that people experience other Caribbean islands. So, for instance, you'd never met … a Kittitian, perhaps had never met a Trinidadian or a Guyanese or whatever. But on the ship, there was all those sorts of relationships to be made and sharing of information.
Demi: Absolutely, and that's how the community I would think would start is on that ship. Because you're all going to one destination, maybe not the same goal, but you all have similar aspirations of what you want to achieve out of it.
And my grandpa said that they did make a lot of stops along the way before coming to England. So, you're sort of building your community from then even before you come off the boat.
Lynda: Definitely, and did he tell you any stories about his first time on the ship and his first experiences? Because one thing my mum always says about the first time you had sliced bread and an apple.
Catherine: Yeah, because in the Caribbean, most of our fruits you have to peel. So, came on the ship and people were itching the skin. I thought they were all primitive, really. I thought, “Eh, we didn't do that in Saint Kitts.
Demi: Yeah, Saint Kitts actually, I don't know if it's just my nan, but I don’t know, there's a lot of education in Saint Kitts. My nan went to a private school, her education was all taught by white English people. Like her education in Saint Kitts.
Lynda: You went to one, didn't you?
Catherine: Yeah, I went to private school from the age of four. So, by the time I came to England, I was streaks ahead of the-
Demi: Yeah, that was like my nan.
Catherine: Local children.
Demi: My nan is very premium ... like even when we're going to the street to get groceries, she's in heels and a hat, and a handbag.
Catherine: Oh, my kind of person.
Lynda: But you’re not that much of a Kittitian, you ain’t that posh.
Demi: I feel like you guys would've been friends. But she's very about her business.
Lynda: You describe yourself as a multifaceted journalist who loves audio, loves music, and loves podcasts. Did you get that from your grandfather and being of Caribbean descent, did that play a hand in what you do today?
Demi: You know what, I would say that my love of probably telling stories — because when it comes to friendship group, I would probably say I'm quite flamboyant and I'm the best at impersonations and doing anyone's accent, giving me any accent, I can do it.
And I would say that's because I'm an only child as well, in a family where my mum is one of five siblings, and with my grandparents. So, it's almost like I've been raised as the youngest kid in a way, it's a very interesting dynamic.
So, I've always been the youngest in the room all the time at any time. And sometimes, not that they would forget I'm a kid, but sometimes, you know how Caribbeans are, when you get a bit of a drink Danny, you sort of forget and you know they-
Lynda: Big people business.
Demi: Yeah, big people business. So, I'm around big people business from a very young age and people would just tell stories and I would be so enamoured by it. And I felt like I've really absorbed that way of telling stories.
And my grandpa's very, very animated and when he's telling the story, he will get up and he'll go from one end of the room to the other to tell the story and have people in stitches. And I feel like that's been passed down to me.
Lynda: That's so funny, because one thing a Caribbean can do, we can tell a story and your description of your granddad reminded of my dad, because he was the funniest person.
He'll get up, even if you are annoyed with him for something, then he'll tell you a story and it's like, “Oh daddy, stop making me laugh,” it's that sort of thing. And the laughter we have, we can laugh, can't we really, well. Like belly laugh, you know.
Demi: Yeah.
Lynda: But you're talking about your mum education. What does your mum do?
Demi: So, she's a psychotherapist.
Lynda: Oh, wonderful.
Demi: So, it was just me and her for a while, just us two. And while she was raising me, she was also studying. So, she did her degree at Birkbeck University, and at the Open University whilst having a full-time job, whilst still raising me.
And then when I was 19, going into my second year of uni, she went to move to New York to do her masters at NYU to become a psychotherapist. So, yeah, that's my mum.
And I think because I am her only child and because I know I'm her only child, it's like I have to do well in life. I don't know, that's just something I just hold to myself.
Lynda: That must be wonderful for your granddad as well. You know, came here as a carpenter, had five kids, worked very hard and your mum does super well for herself, and you are doing super well. So, he is probably sitting back now and going, wow.
Demi: Yeah.
Lynda: £75 was well spent.
Demi: It's true, that's the thing. And when you are buying that ticket, you don't know what it's going to lead to. It can lead to great things.
Lynda: Fantastic. So, we're getting to the end of the conversation now, and we always like to end the show with a saying. Now, it can be something that was passed down from your grandfather or grandmother or just a saying that you remember from childhood.
Demi: So, the saying that my mum's always said to me, and that stuck with me throughout my life is that you can be anything you want to be as long as you put your mind to it.
Lynda: She's so right. And I know we're wrapping up, but that's what my mum said to me. There's nothing you can't do or can't be. Just work hard, work towards your goal, and it will come true.
Demi: Thank you so much, guys, for having me, I've really had a great time.
Lynda: Thank you.
Catherine: Thank you.
Lynda: Such a lovely sentiment there to end the show on. Take advice from Demi’s mum everybody; you can be anything you want to be.
Catherine: Yes, and it seems like it served Demi well, because what an amazing person she is. If you are listening, Demi’s mum, you did good.
[Music Playing]
Lynda: So, that's the end of today's podcast. If you'd like to know more about the work we do to share stories like Demi’s, please visit museumand.org.
Catherine: Next week, we'll be speaking to magazine editor, Dawn-Maria France, about an object that reflects her profession perfectly.
Lynda: But until then, bye-bye.
Catherine: Bye.