E9 - First Hand or Last Hand?

Speakers: Catherine Ross, Lynda-Louise Burrell, & Paul Henriques

[Music Playing]

Riaz: My mother's Dutch pot.

Jocelyn: A poster which is a map of Barbados.

Female: My grandmother's suitcase.

Lenny: A flyer with a sound system on it.

Catherine: We all have one of those objects, don't we?

Lynda: Something so sentimental, we've had it for years.

Catherine: And losing or breaking it is not an option.

Lynda: These objects tell a story about us.

Catherine: About our lives, upbringing, and family.

Lynda: And for Caribbeans whose stories are so often left untold, we are bringing these stories to the fore.

Riaz: They're just pots on a surface level, but they're kind of loaded in history.

Lenny: These flyers would've been going back to the seventies, so it brings back great memories.

Catherine: This is Objeks & Tings.

Lynda: A podcast celebrating Caribbeans and their favourite tings.

Catherine: Episode nine: first hand or last hand?

Hello, and welcome to another episode of Objeks & Tings.

Lynda: The show that celebrates 75 years of the Windrush by the objects we Caribbeans cherish most.

Catherine: I'm Catherine Ross and that was my daughter Lynda Burrell. We run the National Caribbean Heritage Museum, Museumand.

Lynda: Which basically means we put on exhibitions around the UK that celebrate Caribbean heritage and culture.

Catherine: And an extension of that is this podcast, which we started to commemorate this year's 75th Windrush anniversary.

Lynda: We’re on episode nine now, so our regular listeners will know the score. But for those who are new to the show …

Catherine: Welcome.

Lynda: Yes, welcome. And to fill you in, each week, we talk to a different guest about an object they love most.

Catherine: We do this because as museum owners, we love objects and find they make the best conversation starters.

Lynda: Yes, we find they help access conversations you couldn't reach without a prompt.

Catherine: Indeed, but I feel instead of explaining, probably best to demonstrate.

Lynda: You mean instead of sitting here chatting, let's go on with the show?

Catherine: Precisely, it's time to hear from today's guest.

[Music Playing]

Paul: My name is Paul Henriques, I am the founder of Pardna. Pardna is a mobile application that replicates the age-old tradition of pardna.

Catherine: We met Paul while researching for an exhibition called Pardner Hand, a Caribbean answer to British banking exclusion.

Lynda: We bonded with him over our mutual appreciation of pardna, so we thought it's only right to invite him on our show and explain exactly what it is.

Paul: My object today isn't so much an object, it's a ting. And that ting is pardna. Pardna is a communal saving activity where friends and family or members of the community get together, form a group and decide to save a fixed amount each month.

Now, one person in that group will then take a turn to receive the proceeds of that fixed amount that is collected. And next month everyone gets together again, pulls all their pardna money into a fixed pot, and the second person in line will then receive it.

This activity continues until everyone in the group has had a chance to have their payout or their pardna draw as we call it.

Now, the whole thing is managed by a central person, typically a matriarch in the community who is known as the banker. That would be the person to organise the collection and distribution of these proceeds.

And the reason why this activity is so useful is that for some people, it’s a quick cash boost. The first person to get their payout or their draw as we call it, they're getting a cash boost from the members in the group. And the last person to get their draw, it's like they're being helped to achieve a savings goal. So, it's good all-around basically.

The draw is decided by the people within the group. For example, if say, five of you get together, you may decide that you would prefer to receive your draw last because you are saving up for a major holiday that's at the end of the year, for example.

Or you may have a pressing bill that you need to address, and you would prefer to get your draw early.

When I think of Pardna, it just reminds me of when my parents came over to the UK and how it helped them. My parents used to always travel back to Jamaica whenever they could, and it was a pardna money that helped them to do that.

When the Windrush generation came over to the UK, they was locked out of standard credits, they was denied access to certain banking services. And so, something like the pardna for Caribbean people at the time, it was a godsend.

So, it's got a special place in my heart in that sense, and I've seen how much it helps other people. So, it was really important to me to not only carry on the tradition, but to do it in a way that makes it ready for the future basically.

Catherine: Wow, didn't Paul explain that well?

Lynda: Yes, thanks Paul, that was beautifully put.

Catherine: Like many Caribbeans, Paul has been involved in pardna from a very young age.

Lynda: Now, if you're not Caribbean, you might think that is strange. How can a kid be involved in money management?

But if you are Caribbean, you all know we love giving our kids chores and pardna, for a lot of Caribbean kids, is a chore in waiting. Well, that was until Paul's app came along.

Catherine: Confused, again, we let Paul explain.

Hello Paul, how are you?

Paul: Hey, how you doing? I'm fine, thank you. How are you?

Catherine: Yeah, fine. Excited about the conversation to come.

Paul: I can't wait.

Lynda: Hi yuh.

Paul: Hello.

Catherine: Can I just start with where's your family from?

Paul: Yeah, so my family's from Jamaica. My parents were born and grew up in Westmoreland in Jamaica, in the countryside. I've been there many times and I love it.

Catherine: Great, and when did they come to the UK?

Paul: They both came in 1958, but my dad travelled over first.

Lynda: But why did you grow up in the UK?

Paul: I'm a Jamaican Londoner is what I like to say. We grew up in a church. My dad was a pastor. My mom had two jobs and so they kind of shielded us from if there was any kind of struggles, there's things that they did just to help us get by.

Growing up in the seventies, I do remember, especially in North London, the national front marches down the main high street, things like that, being chased in the streets when I was a youth as well by people who didn't like the way you looked, so went for all that, but also had a very happy home life.

Catherine: Thanks for sharing that with us. Can I ask you now, what's your first experiences of pardna?

Paul: Yeah, so my first experience is, I mean, I mentioned earlier how our parents gave us the best that they could with love, et cetera. Finances were tight, but because of pardna, that helped us to get by.

My first experience of it though was being told to deliver the pardna money on a Saturday morning — I just want to watch cartoons, man. You’re given a brown envelope, stuff of cash told to deliver to Mrs. Dixon, a bus ride away. So, I begrudgingly did that.

But that was my first introduction to pardna, and also, remember when it was time for my parents to collect their pardna draw, I remember distinctly. And one of the reasons was my parents did the pardna not only to pay bills, but to pay for trips back to Jamaica.

And there was one time when for some reason, they got the pardna draw, but they lost the envelope. And I remember it was in the house somewhere and we were searching high and low, and it was a bit of a panic.

But yeah, here we found it in the end. But for a short period of time, there was pure panic.

Lynda: Where was it? Who had it?

Paul: I think it was in my parents' bedroom because I was packing to go back, there was lots of things upside down and you know what I mean? It must have slipped behind something. So, that was my kind of earliest memories of pardna when I was growing up.

Catherine: Yeah, I've not heard that story before, that was the first time.

Lynda: I've heard the story of kids having to go and drop it off somewhere. And like you said, begrudgingly having to get on the bus or walk around to sister so and so's house and miss Saturday morning TV.

Paul: Exactly, I went through that.

Catherine: What has being involved in a pardna at such an early age taught you about money management?

Paul: Well, as the years went by, it taught me the importance of managing money and the importance of being disciplined with your money.

The fact that depending on where you are, when it's time to get your pardna draw, if you are towards the end of the pardna cycle, that taught me how to be patient and disciplined and to work towards something that you want instead of having that must have it now kind of mentality.

And also, the extreme importance of community, even though I kind of didn't like in the early days having to travel to Mrs. Dixon's to deliver the pardna, her son was a friend of mine, or he got to be a good friend of mine. And so, there was that kind of community connection, I made a good friend. You get to see people in your community as well.

So, pardna taught me both of those things; the importance of discipline, money management, but also the extreme importance of community and how the collective can help each other.

Lynda: It's so true, and also, you shouldn't really complain about having to miss Saturday morning TV because you actually got a Saturday play date with Mrs. Dixon’s son.

Paul: Yeah.

Lynda: Your mom was doing you a favour.

Paul: Indeed.

Lynda: So, what do you use your personal pardna money for?

Paul: I use mine for holidays. I like to have a certain amount of spending money when I go away. So, that's what I use my pardna of money for.

Lynda: Has that always been the case or has that changed over the years?

Paul: I would say it's always been the case for me personally. I've always liked to have a certain amount of money to spend when I travel or when I go away, and not have to rely on cards or anything like that. So, yes, always really been holiday money for me.

Lynda: I feel really bad because I do pardna as well, but I'm doing mine for one of two reasons. One, maybe to go back to the Caribbean next year or to buy an expensive bag.

Paul: Oh, well.

Lynda: I am firm and very frivolous.

Paul: But you know what, that's fine because if you use your pardna for expensive treats, at least you are not using your credit card or you're not going to a payday lender or you're not doing anything like that. So, that's why pardna is really good for things like that.

Lynda: That's actually absolutely true, somebody else said that to me about pardna. At least our community don't have to go to — I know some people do or lots of people do, but we don't have to just rely on those payday loans and things like that.

Speaker ^: Exactly. Yeah.

Lynda: The community can look after each other and I think that's really important, especially now with the cost-of-living crisis.

Paul: Exactly. Yeah.

Lynda: But can I ask you a bit personal, that's what I like to do. Where do you like to come in the draw, first or last, first or last hand? I'm trying to say it like a good Caribbean, but obviously, my accent's not very good.

Paul: So, for me, it's usually towards the end, because I'm usually saving up for something.

Lynda: I don't blame you, that's what I do as well, I'll spend it off straight away.

Catherine: Can I ask, how many pardnas are you in?

Paul: Two at the moment.

Catherine: Right.

Lynda: And are they our monthly ones or the weekly ones? I know some people do weekly.

Paul: Yeah, the monthly ones at the moment.

Lynda: How much do you spend? Because I know that some people, like the one that I'm in, it's either £80 or £100 a month depending on how many weeks are in the month. But I know some people who do, is it 500? Who's got 500 a month to spend on that? I wish I did.

Paul: I did an event on Saturday, Caribbean event, and I was talking to many people about pardna and I did ask them how much was their pardna hand a month. And some of them are saying like £300, £400 a month.

It's just goes to show that people, they have the money to save a month. They maybe don't want to save it in a bank because they know that that money sits in there and they can easily dip into it and use it. And so, the saving goal is gone.

When you are in a pardna, you are kind of disciplined and committed to the group to save up. And if you're saving up that much, then when it's time to get your draw, it's party time, man. So, you hit a jackpot.

So, me personally, it's more like what I'm in is one's 50 and one's a 100. So, that's what I'm doing a month.

Lynda: Well, that's more palatable. Actually, it's really good, we're having this conversation today because it reminded me this morning that it's my pardna day tomorrow, so I can't be late because Ms. Wint will come for me.

Let's talk about your app, your pardna app. Why did you create it and when did you create it.

Paul: I initially had the idea for creating a digital pardna years and years ago, but only in the last year and a half, couple of years, we've actually built the product. And so, I've always worked in that area. I've always worked in tech, and I've always had an interest in Fintech, which is financial technology.

Back in the day, I had an e-commerce startup and my industry that I currently work in is finances also. Those are my areas of interest. And I wanted to build something that I was one, interested in, but also extremely important, I wanted to build something that was culturally important to me.

A pardna is something that has been in our community or in the UK since the fifties. It's obviously been in our communities back home for who knows how many generations before that.

And we all know how important and how much it helped those who came over to the UK in the 1950s and after that. And so, that was extremely important to me just to do something that was culturally important.

And I guess the third reason was because of how much pardna is needed right now. I saw how it helped my parents, I saw how it helped people in their community, people that I knew.

And of course, with the cost-of-living crisis, which is still ongoing and it's still biting, and it's affecting black people the hardest, it was extremely important to me to build a product that addresses all of these things.

Catherine: So, Paul, your app is very apt.

Paul: Indeed, it is, yes.

Catherine: Especially in these times, it's so important and helpful.

Paul: Absolutely.

Catherine: So, how does the app work?

Paul: So, you download the app, you create an account, you connect the app to your bank account securely via open banking. And what you do then is create a pardna group and you specify, for example, this pardna group has 10 people in it and we are each going to save £100 a month, for example.

Once you've done that, then you send out an invitation to join that group to your nearest and dearest, your close friends and family. And you do all this via the app, and it sends it out via WhatsApp, via email or via text.

They get the email, or they get a text or WhatsApp message, click a link, takes them to the app and then once they've joined, they will then join your group. And once you have filled out all the spaces in your pardna group in the app, the app then says, “Okay, it's time to go, let’s go.”

Sends out a notification to everyone that it’s time to send in your pardna hand via the app. Everyone via a few taps automatically sends in their pardna draw. And this is all done with the user's consent, they consent to everything.

And then whoever's turn it is to receive the pardna draw, the app then sends it to that person automatically, directly to their bank account, and then everyone gets notified. And next month it happens again.

And that cycle happens until everyone has had their turn to get their payout. It makes the whole process extremely simple, extremely easy. There's going to be so much more that we're going to be doing with it. And it's all to do with helping people manage their money.

Just giving people access to finance that they may not have because there's still people who are locked out of high street finance or there's still people who can't get cheap credit, things like that. And they're turned into things like payday lenders.

Over the last couple of years, the government cracked down on payday lenders, but they still exist. And so, an app like pardna is needed more than ever I feel.

Lynda: I think it's fantastic. And when I first did pardna a couple of years ago, it really put me off having to go around to the person's house and drop off the money. So, I started doing bank transfers, which was very different for that person.

But then, with the new one that I'm doing, because everyone's got busy life, she's now accepting transfers which is so much easier. But with this app, because I'm a little bit lazy, this sounds so foolproof, I can do it without thinking.

Catherine: Yeah, I like the plans for the future where it will give people guidance on money, I think that's a great way forward, well done.

But what would you say to people who are still sitting on the fence in terms of whether they should do a pardna, be part of a pardna?

Paul: If they know people in their community who want pardna or who have done pardna, just speak to them. Many, many people do partner. When I was at this event on Saturday, every other person did a pardna.

It was a Caribbean event, and so every other person that was there, and this is from like young to old, they did pardna. And so, there's a reason why they do it and it obviously works for them.

So, what I would say is if you know someone in your community who has done a pardna, speak to them.

Also, I mean, I would say just give it a try. You don't have to join a pardna, £500 a month. You could just do like a small one, just £10 a month, just start extremely small.

Catherine: I know some people who have a small pardna for things like holidays in the UK or a big bill or something. And then those who plan to go back to the Caribbean, and they need money and they've got to make statements when they're out there.

And then those who are having family come, let's say from the states to stay and they want to give them a good time, so they put their money to that.

Unlike you and Lynda, I think I might start with a £10 one and aim high. Who knows where I'll be this time next year.

Lynda: So, Paul, we're coming to the end of our podcast today, but we always like to end the show by asking our guests for a saying.

Now, it can be a Caribbean saying it can be around pardna or money, or it could just be a saying that you really like. Have you got one you can share with us today?

Paul: One, one, cocoa baskets.

Lynda: Yes.

Catherine: That's what I was going to say, we didn't have one.

Lynda: I love that saying and I've heard that saying a lot, but because I don't want to look like a bad Caribbean, I never ask what it actually means. Can you or mum explain?

Paul: Okay, yeah, sure, let me explain. So, okay, imagine you have a cocoa or coconut, and each time you are saving one coconut in a basket, if you do that regularly over a certain amount of time, you put another coconut in, next week you put another coconut in, eventually, your basket will be full. And you've got plenty cocoa in there.

So, you have to take time and eventually, you'll reach your goal.

Lynda: That is perfect for pardna.

Paul: Absolutely.

Lynda: Explains it, doesn't it? Oh, I love that, thank you. Thank you so much.

Catherine: Yeah, that's great. Well done.

Lynda: I love it when a guest chooses a saying that compliments their object. Well, in this case, their ting. I must say though, I thought that saying was referring to cocoa pods not coconuts.

Catherine: And I thought it was all about the cocoa, the vegetable.

Lynda: Gosh, Caribbean sayings and the way that we have the same word for so many different things, kind of confusing.

Catherine: But the sentiment's the same. Start saving slowly, one at a time will soon build up to a significant number.

[Music Playing]

Lynda: Quite right, I totally agree. That's why I'm loving doing pardna myself.

We're nearly getting to the end of our show, but before we go, I can't resist plugging our exhibition.

Catherine: Oh yes, good idea.

Lynda: If you're keen to know more about pardna and the great ways it's helped Caribbean people and a growing number of other communities, do go and visit our exhibition, Pardner Hand at the Bank of England Museum in London.

Catherine: Doors are open daily from 8:00 AM to 3:30 PM but closed on Saturday and Sunday. Check out our website for a link with more info.

Lynda: And if you do go, get in touch and let us know what you've learned. You can find us at Museumand on Instagram and @Museumand_ on Twitter.

Catherine: Next week we'll be speaking to Rudy Page about an object, he would have a hard time using himself.

Lynda: Nice clue. But until then, bye-bye.

Catherine: Bye.