Speakers: Catherine Ross, Lynda-Louise Burrell, & Sabira Stanisavljevic
[Music Playing]
Riaz: My mother's Dutch pot.
Jocelyn: A poster which is a map of Barbados.
Female: My grandmother's suitcase.
Lenny: A flyer with a sound system on it.
Catherine: We all have one of those objects, don't we?
Lynda: Something so sentimental. We've had it for years.
Catherine: And losing or breaking it is not an option.
Lynda: These objects tell a story about us.
Catherine: About our lives, upbringing, and family.
Lynda: And for Caribbeans whose stories are often left untold, we are bringing these stories to the fore.
Riaz: They're just pots on a surface level, but they're kind of loaded in history.
Lenny: These flyers would've been going back to the ‘70s, so it brings back great memories.
Catherine: This is Objeks & Tings.
Lynda: A podcast celebrating Caribbean and my favourite tings.
Catherine: Episode four, Say Cheese (And Bun)!
Lynda: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Objeks & Tings. As you can probably hear, Catherine and I are still full of cold, so please bear with us. But we're on episode four already.
Catherine: I know, we're really steaming through. So, for those that don't know, this is the show that celebrates 75 years of Caribbeans in the UK through the objects they cherish most.
Lynda: And why 75 years you ask? Well, in this series, we are celebrating 75 years since the Empire Windrush came to British shores.
In coming to a brand-new country and making a new life for themselves, the Windrush generation were true pioneers. I'd ask you to imagine what this must have been like mum, but I don't have to because you were one of them.
Catherine: I was indeed. I came to Nottingham in 1958 with my mother and three siblings. I was only seven at the time, so I can't remember it all too well. But I do remember vividly, the houses all joined together, something I had never seen in Saint Kitts.
Lynda: So, this series is about celebrating your generation and the generations of Caribbeans that followed like me.
Catherine: And as some of you may know already, Lynda and I run the National Caribbean Heritage Museum, Museumand. A museum dedicated to sharing stories of Caribbeans in the UK.
Lynda: Because we run a museum, we are pretty obsessed with objeks and tings, which is why each week on the podcast we'll be inviting a different guest onto the show to talk about their most prized possession.
Catherine: Yes, we think every object has a story to tell, but particularly, those long-loved objects that we couldn't do without and wouldn't want to be without.
[Music Playing]
Lynda: So, shall we hear from today's guest, then?
Catherine: Yes, why not?
Sabira: My name is Sabira Stanisavljevic. I'm an actor, filmmaker, and I work in post-production as well for TV and film.
Catherine: Sabira’s mother is from Trinidad, but her extended family on her mother's side are from Tobago, which means they are Tobagonians, which isn't a word Sabira can pronounce all that well.
Sabira: My mom knows how to say it properly, I'm not even going to attempt it. I said it to my husband, he’s like, “You’re making that word up.”
Catherine: As is tradition, Sabira will explain in a moment what her object is, but before she does, I'm going to give you some hints.
This item is one pretty universal to the Windrush generation, and other generations for that matter.
Lynda: Well, that could be anything. Well, I need another clue.
Catherine: Back in the day, these objects required you to wear your Sunday best.
Lynda: Something to do with the church, Sunday school.
Catherine: Sunday school is not an object, Lynda.
Lynda: Oh, yeah.
Catherine: Give up.
Lynda: I do give up.
Catherine: Okay, Sabira, over to you.
Sabira: Today, I've chosen a photograph of my mom, my aunt, and my uncle when they were little. It's in really good condition. My mom's kept it really, really safe.
It was the first time that a photographer had come to town, and it was a really big deal. And my granddad was in hospital, and he told my grandma to make sure she went and got this photo of the kids.
So, there's my uncle on one side, my auntie on the other, and my mum, who was about four-years-old, five-years-old, standing on a chair in the middle. And you can see if you zoom into the photo that she's pinching a bag that she's holding. And it's really cute and this little concentration on her face.
And I've heard the story quite a few times over the years. She was asked by my uncle, “How are you going to remember today?” And she's like, “I'm going to pinch my bag and I'm going to concentrate really hard.” And you can really see that on her.
And she does. She remembers the photos, she remembers everything about that day. I think it's amazing that at that age, she had the realisation that this was such a big moment, and she really wanted to remember it.
My mom is a strong, determined, ambitious woman. You can't tell her anything really. But she's funny as well, and she's really funny. And she's very easy to make laugh, which I enjoy doing.
You know, for all her seriousness, she does love to have a bit of a chuckle, but she's done a lot in her life, and I really admire her.
She was an actress on the West end stage, she was in the original Jesus Christ Superstar. She studied Computer Science. She's got her master’s in computer science. She started a perfume brand, she's done so much in her life.
So, I think, growing up in London as a black female, she found it really tough. And I remember she said things like, she'd be walking to school and grown men would spit on her, which is just horrific to think that somebody so young had to go through anything or anybody had to go through anything like that.
So, yeah, I know she definitely found it really difficult, but the fact that she still found an industry that she enjoyed being part of, that she persevered no matter what, it really speaks to her strength.
Catherine: Wow, what a lovely piece there from Sabira, a real love letter to her mum. Do you feel inspired to say any nice things about me?
Lynda: No, not really. I say positive nice things about you. But on a serious note, I really do appreciate all you've done for me. And hearing Sabira talk about this photo drives home your idea of the Windrush generation being pioneers.
I just had to know more about Sabira's family, so we pinned her down for a little chat.
Catherine: Hello, Sabira?
Lynda: Hi.
Sabira: Hey.
Catherine: So, your mum is Trini, but your name is Sabira Stanisavljevic, that is no Trini surname. So, where's your dad from?
Sabira: So, my dad's actually from Serbia. That's where the name comes from, yeah, Stanisavljevic.
Lynda: Oh wow. So, how did your parents meet then?
Sabira: Like any good love story, they met in a bar in London.
Lynda: Oh, so there's hope for me yet, then? I could get married too.
Sabira: You know what, I met my husband in a bar, so you never know.
Lynda: So did my sister.
Sabira: Oh, wow..
Lynda: Oh, that's where I have to go. Let’s get some drinks.
Sabira: Old school is the best way.
Catherine: So, when did your mum first come to the UK, Sabira?
Sabira: My mom came to the UK when she was about 12-years-old. My grandma came over with her, my auntie, and my uncle, and they all came over on a banana boat.
So, they moved into West London and that's where my grandma chose to settle. So, yeah, my mom's been here since she was about 12-years-old.
Lynda: Alright. So, did you grow up in West London as well or where did you grow up?
Sabira: I grew up in West London as well. We didn't move very far. I live in West London now as well.
My mom lives up the road from me. My uncle lives around the corner, my sister lives down the road. So, yeah, I don't think any of us really moved very far. My auntie actually lives in my grandma's old house, and that is in White City.
Lynda: I love that. It's nice to be close to your family. I mean, I moved as far as I possibly could from mine.
But how was it for you growing up being half Trini and half Serbian?
Sabira: It was very difficult, I would say. We were the only children with any colour in us around where we grew up.
I mean, you walk around Notting Hill now, there's like loads of kids around, but there were no kids back then. Besides me, my brother and our next-door neighbour, it was all just a lot of white adults.
And I do remember one time when I was probably about five or six-years-old going down to the bathroom to brush my teeth and being really shocked that I wasn't white, because that was what I was seeing every single day.
It was really strange because also, we didn't go to Trinidad or Tobago when I was little. We predominantly went to Serbia. So, it was my dad's side of the family that we saw most of the time. And it was only until recently that I started to reconnect with my mom's side.
Lynda: Really, that's really interesting. Because I thought it would be the other way around. So, how was it going to Serbia as a little brown child? Was that culture shock or was that a norm?
Sabira: It was actually the norm, and it was such a novelty to them for us to be kind of … we'd drive over there all together as a family. And I remember people used to line up on the streets as we came in.
Lynda: Celebrities.
Sabira: It was a big, it was so bizarre. Thinking about it now, I'm like that's so weird.
Lynda: Is that … you were an actress, do you think?
Sabira: I was just used to it, and I just crave that kind of attention.
Lynda: Are there any similarities between the Serbian and the Trini cultures that from the outside, you would think there'd be nothing similar, but are there any those little things that only people that live it like, “Oh, that's very Serbian or that's very Trini.”
Sabira: I think the acceptance of other cultures, my granddad was very open to everyone and everything and I think that's quite telling of the culture there. And I think when you go to Trinidad and Tobago, you see how welcoming they are to everybody.
Oh man, they're the friendliest people on earth. But yeah, it's just accepting people for who they are and not making any judgements on anyone.
Lynda: Yeah, that's true. I think that's actually quite true. The majority of the Caribbean, we’re so welcoming. And I think sometimes that's been to our detriment, because that's why … things that we’ve been appropriated.
Because we're like share … the welcome one, welcome all. But that's really interesting too about the Serbian culture because you don't really hear much about Serbian culture at all. But now, you're saying this, I'm like, “I can actually go on holiday there, it’d be quite nice.”
Sabira: You kid, it'll snow.
Catherine: We loved hearing about your mother's photograph. Why did you decide to pick this as your objek for today?
Sabira: It has so much meaning, I feel to my mum. I always remember her talking about it and it was such a big deal as well.
Like they had a photographer in town for the first time ever, my mom's wearing a little white dress, and she's got a purse that she's hanging around her shoulder, and I just think it's so cute. I feel like she looks exactly the same.
Lynda: No, but I love that. Because when you look at a photograph, when you look back, I'd also be thinking white, in the Caribbean, no washing machines. That was all handwashed, hand-pressed properly, maybe with a hot stone.
Like my grandma said they used to do that in the Caribbean and leaving the clothes, but having hot iron as well. And all those little things that your grandmother would teach you on wash day, which I used to dread as a child; how to make sure that you wash your clothes properly and have that really good squeak.
Sabira: Exactly.
Catherine: I remember the photos that we took when we were children, there were six of us. So, there were six children and either one of the parents, depending who was taking the photo at the time, whether it was mum or dad, and trying to keep six children in order was quite difficult.
I remember a particular family photo that we took when we were quite young. My mum was a great seamstress. She made everything, absolutely everything. So, the two boys are in homemade suits that she made. They do look a bit 1950s.
Lynda: 1950s homemade. Sorry grandma.
Catherine: The fashion was the men wore trousers a little bit longer. So, they do look like they borrowed somebody's clothes, but they were actually made for them. Do you know what I mean?
Sabira: That’s amazing.
Catherine: And our dresses were the sticky out type, all freely and bows and things or whatever. Again, we looked a little bit picture postcard really. Not anything you'd want to wear now, or my granddaughter would want to wear now.
But we did look the part, but we were never all looking in the same direction at the same time.
Sabira: It's amazing, isn't it? I mean, luckily, they were all looking at the camera, but it's not like pictures now, is it? Where everyone's posing and smiling. It's kind of-
Lynda: Cheese!
Sabira: Yeah, they didn't know what to expect, so they're just standing there with straight faces and it's really fascinating. It's great seeing little photos from the past.
Lynda: I suppose it must be true, because unless somebody tells you what to do, how to act, you wouldn't know, would you? I wonder when we started saying “cheese” or as we say in our family “bun and cheese!”
Sabira: I might steal that one, I like that.
Catherine: It's very sad to hear your mother's experiences as she was growing up. And when I hear stories like this, I always think that we Caribbeans are taught respect all of our elders regardless.
So, for a young child to experience someone spitting and treating them so poorly it must have been so hurtful and confusing.
Sabira: Yeah, I think it was, and I think it had a really lasting effect on her. When we were growing up, she really tried to protect us from all of that and to try and foresee any situation that something may occur.
And it clearly affected the way that she interacted with certain individuals, and she just tried to protect herself and protect her family from then on in.
Lynda: I can totally see that. I mean, my mom never told me about that sort of situation, but used to say that when you went to school, the kids would come up to you and say, “Let me get the black off you and lick the finger and rub your skin, let's spit on you.”
So, what you say is, when you used to go home in the evening, first thing grandma would do is hose all of her children down, get them undressed, get them into the bath, wash it all off. So, it's just horrible, horrible, tough to go through that.
Sabira: It is.
Lynda: Things that people do.
Sabira: Yeah, it really is.
Catherine: It sounds like your mum really carved out a great life for herself. She must have been one of the first black actresses on the Western stage.
Sabira: She was, yes. And I can't remember the name of the woman, but there's a statue of a woman outside of Stratford East Theatre and that is the woman who took my mum under her wing and really nurtured her in her acting.
And yeah, there's still some news articles cuttings that we've got of my mom from when she was on stage, and she was called the next big thing and all that kind of stuff.
It's quite amazing. I look at these photos and I'm like, “Mom, your legs are so long.” It's like a photo of her reclining, she's got this amazing afro. And I was like, “Oh my goodness, but you're so little.”
Catherine: Oh, when you spoke about your mom, your smile was so wide, so big.
Sabira: Was it?
Catherine: Yeah, oh, you're so proud.
Sabira: I am really proud, she's such a determined, just amazing woman. She's done so much in her life and she's very, very humble about it. Or she's like, “Oh, it was just a thing I did or oh yeah, no, I just did that.”
And actually, most of the stories of my mom, I had to get from other people. Because she's like, “Listen, that was then, this is now.”
Lynda: But did you ever see your mum actually performing anything or was that before-
Sabira: I didn't, no, she gave up … so, I've got an older sister as well, but she gave up when she became pregnant with my sister.
Lynda: It's your sister's fault. A lot of things in my life are my older sister's fault.
Sabira: Not going to say out loud but …
Catherine: Yeah, that’s one thing … because really into the Caribbean culture, I have to blame our people, but it might be a thing that's widespread with all parents, but they never tell their stories, do they?
And we could learn from them and we perhaps will respect our parents a bit more if we really knew where they've come from, what they've done and whatever.
Lynda: What they've been through.
Catherine: Yeah.
Lynda: Well, you hear that word “pioneer” a lot, especially when it comes to the Windrush generation. But I must honestly say in your mom's case, she was a true pioneer, or she is a true pioneer.
An actress, working in computer sciences, black woman, who's ever heard of that? And with this perfume range, I love beauty stuff, I love perfume. I'm dousing it today, so it sounds so exciting. She sounds just like me, but I just can't act or do anything to science.
Lynda: As you're an actress now, were you inspired by your mum at all?
Sabira: I have been inspired by my mum my whole life. She was very-
Catherine: Beautiful, that's lovely. I think I might adopt you.
Lynda: I’m inspired by you. You inspire me every day.
Catherine: I'm so sorry.
Sabira: No, you know what, she was very creative and probably, subconsciously, I was inspired by her being on the stage as well and so I went into acting.
But I just love the creative freedom of being able to express yourself and I've definitely learned that from her.
Lynda: Wonderful. And I do recognize you, but I don’t know if I recognize you because I've been obviously planning this podcast, so I looked at you or if I've seen you on TV. I watch a lot of TV, TV is my best friend. I talk to the TV the way I talk to anybody in the world.
Have you been in anything that I may recognize you from?
Sabira: I have an advert out at the minute, where I'm a barista serving a coffee to a woman and that is on heavy rotation. They've just renewed it for another year.
Lynda: Wow.
Sabira: Literally, I keep getting messages from people going, “Oh, you were just on my TV last night.” And I’m just like, “Yes, I know, I do other things as well.”
Catherine: Well, that’s great, that's right to the minute. That's really good, thank you.
Lynda: What's it like being a black British actress at the moment in the industry, especially after 2020 and the whole George Floyd issue, has the industry changed much?
Sabira: I feel like there is a lot of opportunity. I think that people are working hard to make sure that shows and films are more diverse.
You do see the backlash of that from people online though, which I think is quite a strange take for people to have. Allowing others to have opportunity seems to irk a lot of people.
But generally, as an industry, I can see that a lot of people are working hard to make sure that there are opportunities for all.
Catherine: It's so lovely to watch TV now, and see yourself on it.
Sabira: Exactly.
Catherine: Because for most of my life, it wasn't the case. And then when you saw them, they were in those stereotype roles. So, it's nice and fresh to see what is being produced now. It's a pleasure to watch TV but I don't watch it as much as Lynda does, no.
Lynda: Nobody does. I still like it when — especially because we run the museum and whenever something's on TV, people always still call us, text us, WhatsApp us, and say, “We’ve seen that show, turn over to this channel, black people …” I love that.
Sabira: You know what, it's changed a lot even over the last few years. Because I mean, I only retrained as an actor maybe seven, eight years ago.
And even when I first came into the industry, you did have a lot of those stereotypical roles where it would be sassy best friend. I'm like, “Oh God, here we go.”
Lynda: Do the neck action. And not all black people do by the way, but we have to do that neck action.
Sabira: It's just like, “Okay, cool, can you speak with the London accent?” It's just like, “Well, what's a London accent?” It's just like, “Come on guys, we can do better than this.”
But you know what, even in the last few years, it's just gotten a lot better, and I think that's got a lot to do with a lot of people of colour being in a position to be able to write and make their own content as well.
Being able to put us into characters that aren't just your stereotypical, violent black male, sassy black woman. Which yeah, it's really helped to open up the industry.
Catherine: We got to end the show on a saying. We try and get a saying for every episode that we do. So, we are going to ask you, are there any family sayings that were always said in the home that you'd like to share with us?
Lynda: It can either be Trini or Serbian or a mashup of both.
Sabira: You know what, there's no sayings, but the thing that pops into my head, my mom's going to kill me, I’m so sorry. She used to get so annoyed with me and my brother running up and down the stairs.
Oh no, she's going to kill me, I'm going to say it anyway. She’s like, “Up and down the bleeding stairs.” I won't say that's a family saying, but it's definitely something that sticks out in my head when you ask about a saying from my childhood.
Lynda: There's something magical about stairs when you are younger, isn't there?
Catherine: Yeah, I think it's because kids love hurling themselves off things and stairs help with this. But apart from children loving stairs, what else have you taken away from this episode, Lynda?
Lynda: I really loved hearing about the Serbian culture and the surprising ways in which it's similar to Trinidadian culture, and it makes sense that they're both welcoming and very friendly, because that's exactly how I would describe Sabira.
Catherine: Well, sadly, that's all we have got time for today. If you are liking the series, we'd love to hear. Please like and subscribe wherever you listen to your podcast. And why not leave us a review.
Lynda: Next week, we have Wendy on the show to speak about an item that in my eyes is the most quintessential Windrush object there is. See if you can think about what it might be.
But until next time, bye-bye.
Sabira: Bye.