Speakers: Jocelyn Chandler-Hawkins, Lynda Burrell, & Catherine Ross
[Music Playing]
Riaz: My mother's Dutch pot.
Jocelyn: A poster, which is a map of Barbados.
Female: My grandmother's suitcase.
Lenny: A flyer with a sound system on it.
Catherine: We all have one of those objects, don't we?
Lynda: Something so sentimental. We've had it for years.
Catherine: And losing or breaking it is not an option.
Lynda: These objects tell a story about us.
Catherine: About our lives, upbringing, and family.
Lynda: And for Caribbeans whose stories are often left untold, we are bringing these stories to the fore.
Riaz: They're just pots on a surface level, but they're kind of loaded in history.
Lenny: These flyers would've been going back to the seventies, so it brings back great memories.
Catherine: This is Objeks & Tings.
Lynda: A podcast celebrating Caribbeans and their favourite Tings.
Catherine: Episode two, X marks the spot.
Hello, and welcome to Objeks & Tings, a podcast celebrating 75 years of Caribbeans in the UK.
Lynda: Yes, welcome. I'm Lynda, the Creative Director of the National Caribbean Heritage Museum, Museumand.
Catherine: And I'm Catherine, the founder.
Lynda: She's also my mum. And together we are on a mother-daughter mission to celebrate the Windrush generation and share stories from British-Caribbeans of all ages.
Catherine: And we've done that first with our museum, and now, to celebrate 75 years since the Windrush came to British shores, we've started a podcast too.
Lynda: Yes, as museum curators, we know only too well the power of an object to elicit memories. So, each week, we'll be speaking to a different guest about an object or ting close to their heart, and using that as a jumping off point to tell stories about what it is like being Caribbean in the UK today.
Catherine: Yes, exactly. And this week, we have the lovely Jocelyn on the show.
Jocelyn: My name is Jocelyn Chandler-Hawkins and I live in Reading, and I am a film event producer.
Lynda: Jocelyn's family is from Barbados, which means you can refer to her as one of two things.
Jocelyn: So, I would refer to myself as a Bajan, but increasingly, more people say Barbadian, but either or, they're interchangeable.
Catherine: Jocelyn's object today is something many Caribbeans have to remind them of home. Go on Lynda, have a guess.
Lynda: Reminds me of home, so it could be a picture?
Catherine: Not quite.
Lynda: An object like a porcelain figurine of a place in town?
Catherine: No, now you're way off.
Lynda: What is it?
Catherine: For some people, these items are easy to read, but for others, it causes problems.
Lynda: Ah, a newspaper, a book?
Catherine: I think you're quite off track, really. So, as you're not very good at guessing, let Jocelyn explain.
Jocelyn: The object that I'm sharing is a poster, which is a map of Barbados. It was one of my dad's prized possessions. He was so proud of it, and it doesn't have a high financial value, but it meant so much to him.
And it's one of the few remaining items I have of his, and I've become the family custodian for it. So, I'm really very proud of it.
So, the poster is probably a little bit smaller than an A3 size piece of paper. It's getting a bit faded now. You can see where it was previously folded up. So, the paper folds are in there.
The map of Barbados pretty much fills the whole piece of paper. And they're all in illustrations. Lots of different things to sort of see and do and things that reflects the heritage. So, whether it's the Blackbelly sheep, cricket in the Caribbean, it's still got Sam Lord's Castle on there.
That shows how old it is. But apparently, that crumbled and fell into the sea some years ago. So, that's one of the things I love about it, that it's an older reference point of Barbados.
So, the poster was framed, and it was on the wall throughout my childhood. And unfortunately, my father died when we were children. And one day, a couple of days later, there must have been some vibration, it fell off the wall and the frame that it was in broke.
So, my mum folded it up and tucked it away. And when she then came to move house, because she decided to downsize after, and we were all grown, she came across it and I happened to be there when she was packing up. And I just said, “Oh, I would like to look after it.”
So, once I got it home, I thought, oh, I can't lose sight of it again. So, that's one of the reasons that it always goes on display. It's not one of those things that goes in the loft.
And actually, my husband will say to me, “Oh, where should we put the Barbados poster?” Because we've moved a couple of times in the last 10 years. But anyway, it hasn't fallen off the wall since I've looked after it, so it's all good.
So, to describe my dad, he was quite realistic and quite straightforward. And if we were saying, “Oh, we're scared of a monster.” Oh, he'd say “They haven't got any power, get into bed.”
I remember him as being fairly tall, quite a slim build. He loved to ride his bike. Sometimes, he'd take us with him to the allotment, but you'd normally be put to work. So, whether you were picking potatoes or helping with lettuces.
But I think having grown up in sort of the countryside of Barbados, so my parents didn't grow up in the Sandy Lane as it is now. They grew up in rural Barbados.
So, a whole thing of working the land and bringing in the sheep and growing your own food was very much at the heart of it. So, when people talk now about kids understanding where their food came from, it's like, “Oh, my dad didn't realise he was a bit of a pioneer.”
Nowadays people have a digital footprint when they pass on and things like that. But I was saying to one of my siblings actually, he doesn't feature in many photographs beyond obviously, when he passed.
And so, any photographs we've got or anything we've got, it is very precious. And it's kind of silly really, because if he was here, my dad would probably be quite nonchalant about it. It doesn't matter.
But I hope that wherever he is, he's looking on and thinking I'm really pleased it's on display. That's what I hope.
Catherine: Hearing Jocelyn speak so fondly of her dad really reminds me of my own. As you know, Lynda, my dad back in St. Kitts was a well-known boxer, but here in the UK, he was more known as a preacher.
And actually, I was speaking to one of his friends yesterday and he was telling me one of his memories of my dad, was that he always carried a bible in his inside pocket.
Lynda: Yeah. And I guess if granddad was still with us and a guest on the show, he would choose his bible as his object.
Catherine: Yes, definitely.
Lynda: See, this is why hearing about people's favourite objects is such a good way into stories, not just about their families, but about your own as well. Everyone has a story to tell, sometimes we just need somebody else's to spark it.
On that note, we caught up with Jocelyn to find out more about her object and the stories that come with it. Hello, Jocelyn/
Jocelyn: Hi there.
Lynda: I loved hearing about your object, and we'll talk about that a little bit more in a second. But could you tell me a little bit about when your parents first came to the UK?
Jocelyn: Yes. So, my parents first came to the UK in the early 1960s from the island of Barbados. So, big up all the Bajans out there. And they met in Barbados and then my father came to the UK first to find somewhere for them to live, and he settled in Reading.
Because there was already quite a large Bajan community in Reading, and he knew people here anyway. And then my mum came over, I think it was about a year or two, about a year later. And they then got married.
Catherine: Yeah, that experience is quite general amongst the Windrush arrivals. One coming first, checking out the community, checking out sources of employment, and accommodation, and then bringing the others over.
My family story is that my eldest sister came first because she wanted to study nursing, and as she settled in, she thought it was a good place for the whole family to come.
So, she said to my dad, I think you ought to bring the family over, but come first, have a look and find accommodation, and then bring the family over, which is what happened.
He came first, found a job, found a house for us, and then myself and my three other siblings came with my mum, and we settled in Nottingham in the Midlands.
Jocelyn: Yeah, my parents didn't have any children in Barbados. So, there's six of us, I'm number five. And we were all born in the UK so but yeah, it's quite an interesting thing when you have maybe some children that were born back in the Caribbean, and then some were born here. It must create a different kind of dynamic.
Lynda: That's so true because what I've heard in the work that we've done for the museum, lots of families where they had some children in the Caribbean, some in the UK, and they would send for their children. I think that's called — what's that called again?
Catherine: Barrel children.
Lynda: Barrel children, that's right.
Catherine: And they got that name because the parents here used to send back barrels of goodies and treats for those children that were left behind. Sometimes it was essentials, clothing, household items and so on.
But sometimes it was the treats like the dolls. I loved shopping to buy the dolls to send back to people and toys that you wouldn't necessarily get in the Caribbean.
Now, those children that were left behind were either because parents couldn't afford the fare straight away, but also it was sometimes to look after older family members like grandparents or ageing aunts, and so on.
But when they finally came, they found, as you said, the dynamics — there was one group from back home and the other group that were here. And the ones back home would be the older, but be more restricted than the ones born here because they'd be treated like English children with a lot more freedom and fewer duties to do around the house.
Whereas that's very traditional back in the Caribbean. And I also heard that some of those barrel children were a bit resentful, especially if they had to stay there, never ever came, and some never ever came to England. Their parents left them there.
Jocelyn: Yeah, a project I worked on in the Berkshire area and somebody I interviewed for an oral histories project, he came from Jamaica and he had been left in Jamaica whilst his parents came here to find work and settle. And they subsequently had more children.
And when it came the time for him to come to the UK, his grandfather didn't want him to come over because he'd grown so attached to him and wanted him to stay. And then when he then came over, it was quite a culture shock and luckily, him and his siblings connected and they had a good relationship.
But the whole kind of assimilating into sort of English schools and English life, and things that I suppose a white English person would take for granted — the way the weather is or what you eat for dinner, certain foods that you get.
So, it's much more than just having a different skin colour or a different accent, there's so much more in that. But what I'm proud of for our community is that we've tried to hold on as much as we can and you do end up sort of living, certainly for my generation — you sort of are a Bajan kid at home and you're an English kid at school.
But I look back at it now and I see it almost as a superpower that we had this other kind of resilience and culture to dial into and to have there alongside everything else that we were growing up amongst in the UK.
Lynda: That's so true. And I totally identified with what you were saying about you are one way outside of the home and you're another way inside of the home. And I think, yeah, you're right about the superpower.
Because I felt like a lot of my white English friends, what you saw was that was it, the surface layer. But we always had a bit more knowledge and the way that we're so close to our grandparents that there was that other voice.
There was that other generation that you could get support from and that you could learn from. And lot of my friends didn't really have that relationship. Where now after school, you'd go to your grandparents and you'd be with them and you'll learn all those little Caribbean things and how to make plait bread and how to clean the house properly, which wasn't that fun.
But all those little things that you take through your life, and you assume that everybody knows these sort of things. Monday was a day that both my grandmothers in my mom and dad's side would do the washing.
And like people don't know how to hand wash properly or do things because they don't really spend time in the same way in our culture. That's just what you do. That's normal.
Other people won't do that. So, you pick up so much and then only when you get older you realise, I was so fortunate to have had that time and to have that learning and not just have to read it in a book, but you're actually living it.
Catherine: You mentioned you've got quite a Bajan community in Reading. Can you tell me a little bit more about that?
Lynda: Just to say really quickly, every Bajan that I know is from Reading, every single person I know. So, yeah, I'm sure we have some friends in common.
Jocelyn: We probably do. And it's interesting though because we probably take for granted the kind of span of Bajans who came to Reading. But as I said, I'm one of six children, most of the families we grew up with alongside going to school with, going to Sunday school with my parents, worked with, most of them at that time, had big families.
But as the Caribbean, as a people, it's important that whatever island you come from, you just try and connect up as much as possible. Because we're so much stronger together.
Lynda: Definitely.
Catherine: I agree with you, and I have to tell you that I'm from St. Kitts, but since then, my world has expanded and I got to know a lot of Bajans. And wherever I have met them; Birmingham, London, wherever there are even a few up in Newcastle — and they always say, it's your confidence, I think you, Bajans.
They always say there are two kind of people in this world, those who are Bajans and those who wish they were.
Jocelyn: That's quite funny.
Lynda: I'm going to just really quickly jump in here and say something, don't take offence; but I love the way that Bajans speak, that sing song. I love it, I love the accent.
Jocelyn: Yeah, yeah. I don't sound very Bajan because I was born and raised in this country, but in the right circumstances, I can be very Bajan, but thank you for saying that. That's really kind of you. It's not just in an accent, it's a way of being.
Lynda: So, the poster of the map as a child, did you ever think that it was a treasure map because Sam Lloyd's Castle was on there and do you know who Sam Lloyd was? So, I think as a pirate, I think it's a treasure map. Well, I think you need to get the map and I think you need to go out there and start digging.
Jocelyn: I know that's a really great question. I never thought of it as a treasure map, but I knew how much it meant to my dad, how proud he was of it. And that was enough for me.
So, in his own eyes, I suppose the poster, the map was a treasure to him. And it doesn't have necessarily a high financial value, but it was treasure in that way. And because our dad has now died, he died some years ago, I think it's one of the few things I have that belonged to him and he was really proud of it.
So, from that point of view. And I suppose Barbados seemed mythical, it seemed so far away, which it is from the UK, and it felt like somewhere that I wouldn't get to visit.
I did subsequently get to go as a child unfortunately, after he died. So, I didn't get to travel with him. But I suppose the magic and the mystique and the treasure came from his feelings about it. But it's a good question, I hadn't thought of it like that.
Lynda: That's a lovely answer. That is the treasure. Yeah, I like that.
Catherine: Yeah. I heard that the poster made an appearance at your wedding.
Jocelyn: Yes, that's correct. It was at our wedding. So, when you go to weddings where people decide to give each table a theme, and actually, it was my husband who's not from Barbados, who said to me, “Well, why don't we name each table after a parish from the island, and then you could use the poster and have it there as a way of including your dad in the day, but in like a positive, uplifting way.”
“And then it would mean then that people would get to know a bit about Barbados if they haven't already been there. And they'd find their seats by looking at the different parishes.”
So, we didn't stick anything to it because it is too precious to me for that. But next to it, we had another board that had each parish highlighted and the names underneath so you knew where you were sitting.
My parents come from Parish of St. Andrew, so that was the top table that we were on with my mom and my in-laws and everything. But yeah, it was a really thoughtful gesture because he never got the chance to meet my dad.
So, he wanted to do something to sort of recognize him. And then unbeknown to me, he then mentioned my dad in the speech, which I hadn't cried up until that point. So, then I welled up.
And actually my mum was then at the map pointing out bits of Barbados and so that was a nice way for her to talk to friends of ours that she hadn't met.
Lynda: That's a really good idea. And I think when I get married (not if, when I get married because it will happen), I might steal that idea.
Jocelyn: You are very welcome to it. You steal away. Especially if there's somebody who can't be there or something that just sentimentally means a lot to you, it's a nice thing to do. So, I'm looking forward to seeing a picture from the wedding.
Lynda: Let’s find the man first, then I’ll do it.
So, we are big fans of sayings on this program and each episode we like to use a saying or two. Do you have any sayings or words of wisdom that you remember your parents using?
Jocelyn: So, my mum used to say, and actually, in fact she still says it, “If you haven't got horse, ride a cow.” So, if you haven't got what you need, you use something else. And one of my brothers always says that, if you put mum in the kitchen with just a few basic ingredients, she'll come up with a banquet.
And I think that's true of many Caribbean women of her generation who are in their sort of mid to late seventies and onwards, that my mum grew up cooking for her siblings, she's the oldest of all of her siblings.
So, she grew up cooking for them from quite a young age. So, she's one of these people who can whip something up. So, that whole, if you haven't got a horse ride cow has been used a lot and rings true probably in every area of her life.
And she'll chuckle when she gets to hear this because she would say it to us a lot and still says it now.
Lynda: I love that.
Catherine: That's wonderful.
Jocelyn: Although what I will say about my mum's cooking, that you'll get a Bajan twist on a lasagna or a Bajan twist on sweet and sour, you know what I mean?
Lynda: I love that, it's the best way. Best Chinese food I’ve had is Caribbean Chinese food. I always say that to everyone.
Jocelyn: One of my grandmothers used to make chow mein and we were like, “How did she end up making chow mein?” It always tasted good. But it was like, “How did she find that recipe?”
But she must have found or seen it somewhere and she loved making it. It was one of her favourite things along with fish cakes and cou cou and saltfish and all those things though.
Lynda: Do you think it was the indentured workers?
Catherine: Yeah, I think it may have been there.
Jocelyn: Probably, yeah. Because she did work on a plantation and used to cut sugarcane and things. So, my grandparents did … I mean I say a plantation, it was no longer officially a plantation, but when she was young, she did work on it.
And it's a shame because by the time I was old enough she had passed on. I didn't really get to ask her about those stories. In fact, both sets of grandparents cut sugar cane and had that kind of life.
Lynda: It's so true because my mom, your grandmother, she was from Calcutta, but mom didn't-
Catherine: Oh, okay.
Lynda: Mom came to England and didn't really have a chance to have those real conversations with her to find out a bit more about her, but so interesting, isn't it?
Catherine: Yeah, because I came here when I was seven, so didn't realise the importance of sitting and chatting with the eldest. Do you know what I mean? We need to remember that and encourage our own children to do that.
Jocelyn: Yeah, definitely.
Catherine: I love Jocelyn's mum’s saying: “If you don't have horse, ride a cow.” I know she spoke about it in regards to cooking, but you can really apply it to anything, can't you? And it really sums up the Caribbean make-do attitude.
Lynda: Well, you would say that because you can't cook, but it's still true. We don't like complaints, just solutions.
[Music Playing]
Catherine: So, that's all we have time for today, but tune in next week when we'll be speaking to a really good friend of mine, Lenny Bedworth.
Lynda: Yes, Lenny will be on the show to teach us all about the Jamaican sound system culture in the 1970s.
Catherine: Which I would know nothing about of course, because I was a good church going girl.
Lynda: Or boring. Anyway, until next time, bye-bye.
Catherine: Bye.