Bonus Episode

Jake Warren: Are we here?

Driver: Yes.                   

Jake: Thank you so much.

Debbie Gayle: Thank you very much.

Marius: Are you Debbie and Jake?

Jake: Yes.

Marius: Yes. 

Jake: Is Natasha here? Is she inside?

Marius: No. Natalia is in her apartment waiting for some message.

Jake: Wow.

Marius: Well in any case we go in.

Jake: Yes.

Marius: You are welcome to come, and I will actually show you where we are.

Jake: Yes. Maybe we just dump our bags and stuff first, and then--

Debbie: I want to see Natasha first.

Jake: Oh, you want to see Natasha now?

Debbie: Yes.

[music]

The narrator, Jake Warren: Over a year ago now, I went on a journey. A journey to find Natasha, the mysterious teenager, who helped my mum, Debbie, escape from the Soviet Union in 1974. Somehow, we actually managed to find her. A lot has changed since then. Natasha and mum speak all the time, but it's still over the phone, over Zoom, and over email, until now, that is. From Message Heard, this is a very special bonus episode of Finding Natasha. I'm Jake Warren. If this is your first time joining us, welcome. I highly recommend you make your way to Episode 1 and listen to the story in full so far. You'll hear all about how my mum and Natasha first met via ballet in the Soviet Union as teenagers.

Debbie: "I'll go to the finest school in the world and they will make me a spectacular ballerina."

The narrator, Jake: Why Natasha had to help my mum escape.

Debbie: "I was taken to an isolation hospital just outside the city of Leningrad, and that's when the nightmare really began."

The narrator, Jake: How we found her again almost 50 years later.

Debbie: "Oh my God. Are you sure it's her?"

The narrator, Jake: If you've already listened, welcome back. A little recap for you. When I last spoke to you, my mum and Natasha had connected on Zoom for the very first time.

Jake: Hi Natasha.

Natasha: Hello.

Debbie: Oh. Oh my God.

Natasha: Debbie.

Debbie: Natasha.

Natasha: Debbie, I thought you--

The narrator, Jake: They had to communicate through a translator, but mum was able to ask Natasha some of the questions that had eaten away at her for decades. We even managed to get a letter from Baryshnikov, the legendary ballet dancer slash one-time Sex and the City star, who Natasha and my mom had bonded over a mutual crush of, back in 1974.

Sandra: Move a bit, Deb. Sorry. Don't move yourself, I just wanted you to feel comfortable, but have it closer to your mouth.

Debbie: Well, I can't feel comfortable because I can't smoke, and it's a hard uncomfy stool, and I haven't slept last night. I'm so tired, I just can't even remember my own name.

Jake: Perfect.

Debbie: This is going to be a disaster.

The narrator, Jake: The other voice you heard just there is Sandra. She's our Head of Production here at Message Heard, and co-produced the first series of Finding Natasha. You may not have heard her voice often during the series, but she was always there. In fact, she actually did almost all the interviewing with my mum, but this time around, we thought we'd try something new.

Sandra: So basically, I'm going to sit in the corner like a weirdo, and you guys are going to have a conversation, but I'm going to jump in every now and again.

Debbie: I've got to have a conversation with you?

Jake: That's a great way to start, isn't it?

Debbie: Yes. I didn't know you were going to be doing it. I thought Sandra was.

Jake: Well, Sandra's here in part of it as well.

Debbie: I know, but all right.

Jake: Is the idea of having a recorded conversation with your son that awful?

Debbie: Well, no, but sometimes you get on my nerves, don't you?

Jake: Thank you. Obviously, it's been over a year since Finding Natasha. How do you feel about the reaction to that? I know you were obviously nervous and obviously never been a part of something like this before.

Debbie: Yes. Of course. I wasn't really nervous about when you said you wanted to make a podcast, because obviously, that's what you do, and I wanted to help you in any way I could. Well, I think we both thought it was just a very niche thing, nobody would be that interested. Why would they be? Some woman who you've never heard of, who had an experience nearly half a century ago.

The narrator, Jake: Something we came up against again and again during the first series of Finding Natasha, was my mum's own perception of herself. Even though the podcast has gone on to be hugely popular, Debbie doesn't quite understand why anyone would care about her or her story. Despite that, the experience has still been one of huge catharsis for her.

Debbie: It was something I'd carried in me for decades, never really talked to anybody about, had buried a lot of feelings about it, didn't really want to remember a lot about it, certainly thought that this girl who had helped me, indeed saved my life, I was never going to have the chance to see again so that made me very sad, so I pushed it to the back of my mind. When I came in that day and sat in front of this microphone, and Sandra-- her lovely warm way, asking me questions, it was like the floodgates opened, and that's why I was quite embarrassed about it. I only listened to the podcast once, after it was done. I just thought, "Oh my God, it's like verbal diarrhoea." I couldn't shut up. It was just this massive release.

The narrator, Jake: The series came out over a year ago, in May 2021, in fact, but what exactly has happened since?

Jake: The conclusion of that was reuniting you with Natasha and being able to have that-

Debbie: It was incredible.

Jake: -wonderful call.

Debbie: Yes.

Jake: You're back in each other's lives.

Debbie: I know, and that is amazing.

Jake: What does that look like? How often do you talk? How does it work?

Debbie: When I saw her over the Zoom call, and I just thrust that photograph at the screen and started crying, I think it was lovely for her, but it's very different for me. Me finding her was much more obviously important because I was the one that felt this overwhelming need to thank her, see that she was all right because I always worried that she had got into trouble for helping me. So, yes, it was a bit one-sided. She was lovely. She's 68 years old, but I was just looking at this 19-year-old little angel. What happened afterwards, of course, as you know, is that we started to email. She, bless her, using Google Translate. We have constantly stayed in touch every few weeks.

The narrator, Jake: My mum's even been introduced to Natasha's granddaughter Carys. Natasha wanted my mum to help her learn to speak English. My mum's been doing this by reading her bedtime stories.

Debbie: This is a story for Carys. "Splash. Chameleon fell into the river."

The narrator, Jake: I was obviously roped in to help with the recordings and sending them across.

Debbie: "Coughing and spluttering, he scrambled aboard--"

The narrator, Jake: Throughout my childhood, Natasha was something of a myth. My family semi-knew the story. We knew the significance of someone named Natasha, but honestly, that was it. She was frozen in time for us as this teenager in the Soviet Union who bravely helped my mum out in her greatest moment of need. Now, she's real. She's part of the family, and my mum is part of hers. When Natasha and mum reunited over Zoom for the first time, they spoke about wanting to travel to Italy together. Sadly, that didn't happen. As if anyone needs reminding, the world has been recovering from a pandemic. Natasha is from Russia, which in 2022 became an even trickier place to travel to. A few weeks ago, we were presented with a once-in-a-lifetime slither of an opportunity.

Debbie: This is a very odd situation where this was someone who was incredibly important to me, as a young girl of 17, and I have not seen since 1974. We both lived our lives separately. I don't really know that much of what's happened to her and what she's gone through, and vice versa, so this is a huge gap, but there's a connection there that can never be broken. I was thinking about that actually the other day when I found out-- when she emailed me and said, "Debbie, I've managed to get a Schengen visa for 10 days to go to Helsinki. Can you come?"

Jake: So you basically felt it's now or never. If you don't-

Debbie: Well, it is.

Jake: -go to Finland, then you will possibly live your life with regret till your dying days that you never-

Debbie: Yes-

Jake: -got to see her?

Debbie: -of course. Of course. Although it's been wonderful, and we've reconnected, it's completely different to actually physically see someone.

Jake: How do you feel about that, the prospect of meeting her, actually hugging her and seeing her in the flesh, and it not just being emails or Zoom?

Debbie: Well, of course, I'm very excited about it. A bit nervous. I'm a bit worried she's going to find me a huge anti-climax.

The narrator, Jake: Helsinki is a far cry from the Amalfi coast, but this really could be our only chance to reunite them in person. Within days of receiving the email, we'd booked our flights to Finland.

Debbie: I've ordered this locket. I didn't have time to get it engraved. It just says, "Love" on it. It's a little art deco gold heart. I've ordered that. I will take that and give that to her. I wanted to give her a little present. Obviously, realistically, I probably will never see her again.

Tannoy announcement: Caution, you are approaching the end of the conveyor…

Debbie: It's now 6:20. We left the house at 4:00. I got off to sleep at about 2:00. I had some torture dreams for two hours, smoked about 10 cigarettes, and then the alarm went off.

Jake: Are you excited?"

Debbie: I think I'm too tired at the moment to be excited. Anyway, it all feels very surreal. I think if I'm truthful, if anything, I'm just a bit nervous.

Jake: I should have recognized that.

[music]

Aeroplane announcement: [Speaking Finnish] Hello, and nice to see you on board Finnair. Kindly stow your carry-on baggage in the overhead lockers or under the seat.

The narrator, Jake: I knew that this trip was going to be emotionally tough. Once again, just like 48 years ago, Debbie was going on a journey into the unknown.

Debbie: It's sort of dredged up lots of memories, flying and her. I know this is Finland and we're not coming into Russia, but suddenly, I could conjure up really clearly the feeling of absolute fear walking down the garden path from Kelsey Way, the house in Kelsey Way that I grew up in when we left for the airport. I think both of my parents took me to the airport-- I just remember the cold fear I felt walking down the garden path towards the car. We were leaving very early in the morning like we did, and it was dark.

I think the reality was hitting me that I was going to a strange place on my own. I didn't feel brave at all walking down the path.

Jake: Do you feel braver now?

Debbie: In what sense? I'm not having any tests like that now, am I? I was a young girl.

Jake: Do you feel fear?

Debbie: In what context? I'm not fearful anymore. What do I feel fearful for?

The narrator, Jake: She's still optimistic, and this time not alone.

Aeroplane announcement: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Helsinki. The local time here right now is some 27 minutes past--

The narrator, Jake: We were staying in a hotel, the same place that Natasha was staying.

Jake: Are we here?

Driver: Yes.

Jake: Thank you so much.

Driver: Good night.

Debbie: Thank you very much.

Jake: Oh God.

Marius: Are you Debbie and Jake?

Jake: Yes.

Marius: Yes. My name is Marius.

The narrator, Jake: We were greeted by Marius.

Marius: We have your car.

Debbie: Yes.

Jake: [crosstalk] Is Natasha here? Is she inside?

Marius: No. Natalia is in her apartment waiting for some message.

Jake: Wow.

Marius: Well, in any case, we go in.

Jake: Yes.

Marius: You are welcome to come, and I will actually show you where we are.

Jake: Yes. Maybe we just dump our bags and stuff first, and then--

Debbie: I want to see Natasha first.

Jake: Oh, you want to see Natasha now?

Debbie: Yes.

[music]

The narrator, Jake: In truth, I'm not really sure how to describe Marius. Imagine a Polish mathematics professor, a genius who spoke several languages, a renowned ballet historian across the world, and someone who spoke in a way that seemed he had an enormous quota of words that he simply had to get out each day, but he was also crucial in providing context. Natasha is a very humble person, so it was amazing to hear all the things via Marius that she wouldn't tell us herself.

Marius: She's very modest. She would be very embarrassed if I was to tell you, but Natalia, she's not just a professor-- She is the most influential-- Even famous former Grand Ballerinas don't have such analytical-- She is a great human being.

The narrator, Jake: Marius met Natasha 10 years ago via a joint love of ballet. He called her the most underappreciated, preeminent ballet expert in the world, and a close friend. He had a little glimmer in his eye. You could tell he cared about Natasha quite deeply. We finally reached our room and were able to have a bit of alone time. Debbie was irritable. The tension was thick in the air. Lack of sleep and nerves is a heady combination.

Jake: Right, so you just want to dump your stuff and just go see her, yes?

Debbie: Yes.

Jake: Okay.

The narrator, Jake: Then there was the window.

Jake: Right. Let's go. There's no point in keeping him waiting.

The narrator, Jake: The dreaded window.

Debbie: Darling, just see if you can open the window for me

Jake: Let's not worry about that now. That's not important. Get the present as well.

Debbie: I was going to give it to her later.

Jake: If you think it would be better to give it to her later--

Debbie: Just open the window.

Jake: I don't know if I can open the window. I'd be very surprised if--

Debbie: I can't stay in this room tonight without air.

Jake: The windows do not open.

Debbie: You're joking?

Jake: No, they do not open.

Debbie: I think there's a bit of tissue someone's left.

Jake: All right. Come on. One night. What do you care, seeing Natasha or that?

Debbie: Yes.

The narrator, Jake: I won't bore you with it, but this fixation on the window lasted another 20 minutes. While she'd been jumping to see Natasha just a few minutes before, whether it was the nerves or the lack of sleep, it was clear my mum was stalling, and while I wasn't showing it, I was nervous too. This was something Sandra and I spoke about before I headed out to Helsinki.

Sandra: Is there anything you're worried about with their soon-to-happen meetup?

Jake: It really does feel real, I think when you see someone in person. I worry for the sort of-- there's been this build up and build up and build up. What if they meet and it's anti-climactic in some way? I'm sure there'll be lots of emotion of embracing and hugging and saying, "Oh my God," and "Missing you," and all that kind of stuff, but I think that the idea of being able to sit down with someone in person and then suddenly rake over the past with a massive amount of nuance and emotional depth and all that kind of stuff, is that going to be possible or are we going to be reduced to Google translating, "What kind of soup do you want for dinner?" I don't know. That's a bit scary, because if you've got all of these emotions pent up inside you that you want to talk about and communicate, and you have no real way of communicating with that person, what's going to happen? A hug and a thank you in person is enough, right? Anything else is a nice-to-have and an added benefit.

The narrator, Jake: Finally, the home stretch of an almost 50-year journey. We were on our way to Natasha's room.

[music]

Natasha: Oh. Debbie.

Debbie: You are still Natasha. Oh my gosh.

Natasha: Hello, Debbie.

Debbie: Do you recognize me? I recognize--

Natasha: I don't understand you because I thought--

Debbie: You're just the same.

Natasha: The same?

Debbie: The same. Oh, I thought you were dead.

Natasha: Don't cry.

Debbie: Oh, that's what you used to say.

Natasha: Don't cry, Debbie. Don't cry. I am very glad. At last. At last, Debbie.

Marius: Come. Come.

The narrator, Jake: If you remember from the first series, essentially Natasha's catchphrase for my mum was "Don't cry, Debbie," which she learned from a children's book growing up. When my mum was in the Vaganova Ballet School in Leningrad, Natasha would always say to her, "Don't cry. Don't cry, Debbie." It's something that really stuck in my mum's mind, in her image of Natasha from that time. Marius was operating as a translator, although surprisingly, Natasha's English was a lot better than what we first thought.

Debbie: Marius, how do you say recognize? Does she recognize me?

Natasha: I recognize.

Marius: Of course.

Natasha: Yes, of course.

Debbie: You do?

Natasha: Yes, of course. Yes. I do.

Debbie: 48 years.

Marius: 48?

Natasha: 49.

Marius: Maybe 49?

Debbie: 1974, and it's-

Marius: Right. 48, yes. Sure.

Natasha: Recognize at once.

The narrator, Jake: They had a bottle of champagne, appropriately adorned with a picture of a ballet dancer on its label.

[Cork pop, and cheering]

Marius: [laughs] I apologise.

Natasha: Marius, [speaking russian].

Marius: [speaking russian].

Jake: It sounded like a gunshot. What is that in Russia? Is it pros?

Natasha: Prosit?

Jake: Yes. Is that-

Natasha: Na Zdorovie.

Jake: Oh. Na Zdorovie.

Debbie: Oh. Na Zdorovie.

Jake: Yes. Na Zdorovie.

Natasha: Do you remember Russian?

Debbie: I remember, yes.

Jake: Cheers. Na Zdorovie.

Debbie: Yes.

Natasha: For meeting. For our meeting.

Marius: All right. For this incredible meeting, right?

Jake: Cheers.

Marius: After 48, 49 years.

Debbie: What is 48 years? Nothing.

Jake: Thank you, Marius. I really appreciate that.

Debbie: It's nothing. It could be 48 minutes. [laughs] I just need to ask a few things that I have just boiled up in life in me, Marius, that I haven't been able to really communicate with her, although she's been using Google Translate, and also I was very aware through the email. I want you to please ask-- I want you to say to Natasha, after she took me to the airport, and watched the guard take my lovely coat off, and she watched me go through, and I said goodbye to her-- I didn't think I'd ever see her again-- did she ever have any problems? Was she in trouble in any way? What happened? Where did she go? Did she go back straight to the school?

Marius: I can ask her. Natalia, [Speaking Russian]...

The narrator, Jake: Unfortunately, we didn't really get the answers to those questions. Marius translated the question, but then began talking about the Soviet Union, and we didn't get an opportunity to revisit it. This is what we were worried about, talking through a translator. It turns out Natasha was getting a bit frustrated herself.

Marius: You are essentially a slave of the state.

Natasha: [Speaking Russian].

Marius: [Speaking Russian]. She's saying she's understanding almost everything I am saying.

Debbie: Oh my God, that's amazing. Oh my God.

Marius: Because he can speak-

Natasha: My translation is easier for her-

Natasha: -a lot, a lot, a lot.

Marius: -because I speak a lot, but not in English. I don't speak…

The narrator, Jake: We really didn't need to worry, it didn't take long for mum and Natasha to revert back into their teenage selves.

[crosstalk]

Jake: No, I was just going to say, it's nice to see that after 48 years, or whatever, and they immediately start talking about ballet. It's like you are teenagers again, like falling straight…

Debbie: We are still teenagers. We are still young girls with our lives ahead of us.

Jake: I know. I just turned around, and you were both doing ballet moves.

Debbie: Yes. We're talking about a particular ballerina that--

The narrator, Jake: It was all a bit overwhelming, and after nearly two hours of non-stop chatting, it was time for a well-earned break. Luckily, we were going to be seeing them for dinner in an hour or so.

Natasha: Thank you.

Jake: Thank you. See you in a few hours. Have you got my bag?

Debbie: See you soon. I can't believe that saying that. It sounds, "I've got you a bag." That sounds so crazy to say that.

Porter: Sorry, thank you.

[crosstalk]

Debbie: I know. [laughs]

Natasha: See you later.

Debbie: See you soon.

Jake: Bye-bye.

Debbie: Which way is it?

Porter: This way.

Debbie: I need to go outside and have a cigarette, darling.

Jake: Yes. I need to get my thing from the room first. Let's just go to the room on the way. It's in here. 85730. How do you feel-- well, we'll talk in a second, but how do you feel after?

Debbie: I feel wonderful seeing her. Did you witness genuine love? It was amazing to see her, just amazing.

The narrator, Jake: We headed out to sample the culinary delights of Finland, and somehow along the way, ended up at a Spanish restaurant. It was pretty early, and we managed to find a table slightly secluded and away from other diners.

Natasha: Me-- you bring scampi's.

Marius: Bring scampi's for Natalia.

Debbie: Same for me.

The narrator, Jake: It was now time for a toast, which are so often made to absent friends, that it felt truly special to make one to long-lost friends finally reunited.

[toast]

Jake: Cheers.

Natasha: For you.

Debbie: For you, Natasha, darling.

Natasha: For you, Debbie. Thank you, for your visit.

Debbie: You don't have to thank me, I'm here to thank you.

[music]

The narrator, Jake: I think it was at this point that it all really hit mum. We'd been talking about the reuniting and the fact that we were soon going to have to leave in abstract terms, but now in the hot and noisy restaurant, on very little sleep, it all became real.

Debbie: It's all just too much. [sighs] I can't really believe it. I feel it's too sad to think that I don't know when I'm going to see her again.

Debbie: I think I'll sit outside and get some fresh air.

Jake: Okay. You go outside then, mum.

Debbie: I'm too hot, and it's making me feel a bit faint.

The narrator, Jake: Natasha went outside to join my mum. I wanted to give them a moment. While I had been let into this story to a certain extent, there were still parts of their experience that had to be between the two of them. I would have to wait to find out what happened outside on the bench that evening.

Debbie: She loves her present, and she gave me a beautiful present.

Jake: You didn't do it already, did you?

Debbie: Yes, because it's a private moment between the two of us.

Jake: Aww.

Debbie: We wanted to be alone and do it together.

Jake: Fair enough. It's an nice present.

Debbie: Huh?

Jake: I said it's a nice present.

Natasha: [laughs]

Debbie: Oh, it's because of the cigarette, yes. She hasn't had--

Jake: You've got Natasha having a cigarette after how long?

Debbie: She hasn't had one for 20 years, and I didn't want to. She asked me, and I've never-- say no to her. She hasn't had one for 20 years.

Jake: So the legacy after getting back in-

Natasha: One time.

Jake: -touch, after 48 years-

Natasha: Only one time.

Jake: -is you make her smoke again?

Debbie: I didn't make her, she asked me for one. Look what Natasha gave me.

Jake: A broach?

Debbie: Yes.

Jake: A ballerina broach.

Debbie: A ballerina.

Jake: What did you give Natasha?

Debbie: I gave Natasha a gold heart-

Natasha: Gold heart.

Debbie: -with love.

Jake: Did you like it, Natasha?

Natasha: Yes.

Debbie: She cried.

The narrator, Jake: With both the physical and emotional exhaustion setting in, it was time to call it a night.

Jake: Good night, Natasha. Goodnight, Marius. Sleep well.

Debbie: You only ever see me when I'm like an old dead person.

Natasha: Good rest.

Marius: Good rest. Have a good rest.

Debbie: See you in the morning.

Jake: How do you feel?

Debbie: Just really zonked. I'd love a cup of tea, but that spoils it.

Jake: But I mean how do you feel?

Debbie: It's so sad that I've found her, and I'm going to say goodbye now. She really cares about me.

The narrator, Jake: This whole time, mum was worried that Natasha didn't care about her and about the experience, in the same way that she did. That maybe it was insignificant, or meaningless to her. While it clearly couldn't match the same impact as it did for my mum, after all, Natasha saved Debbie, not the other way around, that didn't stop Natasha from feeling a genuine friendship and connection, unbroken by time or distance. Now we had a big worry on our hands, mum had to go home again. Even before our trip, when I had my chat with mum, the prospect of leaving was on my mind.

Jake The only negative aspect that I can see from it, is actually when we then have to part ways again after 36 hours or however long we were there, knowing that actually-

Debbie: It is unfortunate that I will never probably see her again. I hadn't actually thought that far in advance. I know, how weird is that?

Jake: No, but that's not determined.

Debbie: No, it's not determined, and who knows? The one thing I've learned about life is, never say never. I heard a good one the other day, your uncle told me this, "If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans."

Jake: Nice.

The narrator, Jake: Just as quickly as we had arrived, it was time to leave. The morning after our dinner, we were packed up and in a taxi with Natasha and Marius to once again, say goodbye at an airport.

Debbie: Last time I was in a taxi with you, you were holding my hand and saying, "Everything's going to be okay." I was being my normal [crying]

Natasha: "Why do you cry, Debbie? Why do you cry?" Yes?

Jake: There's happier circumstances this time.

Debbie: Yes.

Jake: There's no reason to cry now.

Debbie: No. Who knows what the future-- none of us know what the future holds, do we?

Marius: No. None of us.

The narrator, Jake: In that taxi ride to the airport, it really felt like we had stepped into a time capsule. I was back with them in 1974. Debbie, about to get on a plane home with no idea when she would see Natasha again. We had come full circle.

Debbie: [crosstalk] last night about Marianela Núñez. I was very impressed with her Juliet.

The narrator, Jake: Then finally it came, the thing that had been hanging over us for the past 36 hours.

Debbie: Oh, we're here. Oh, that's so quick.

[music]

Natasha: Airport.

Jack: What do you want to do? You want to say goodbye now or?

Debbie: I never want to say goodbye. [laughs] But we have to.

Debbie: Now, you look after yourself.

Natasha: It was a good idea to see you, I think.

Debbie: We see each other again, my friend. My dear friend. You take care. Estranged at the airport again.

Natasha: In the airport again.

Debbie: At the airport again.

Natasha: But this another airport, another time…

Debbie: Another time, another life.

Natasha: Another life.

Debbie: No crying.

Natasha: No crying.

Debbie: Say, one last time, "Don't cry, Debbie."

Natasha: I will write.

Debbie: You write, and I write. Goodbye, dear.

Natasha: Goodbye.

Debbie: I will always love you. Always be great.

Jake: Bye-bye Natasha. Thank you so much.

Natasha: Thank you very much, for you.

Jake: No. Thank you.

Natasha: The visit.

Jake: Thank you.

Natasha: Thank you very much.

Debbie: You look after yourself, special lady.

Jake: Bye-bye. You all right, ma?

Debbie: Yes, I'm fine.

Jake: Go on, give me a hug. You're okay.

Debbie: I don't think I'm ever going to see her again.

The narrator, Jake: After such a short amount of time together, it really did feel Natasha and my mum had only had one moment alone together in the entire trip when they went outside together at dinner the night before. I spoke to her the morning after, just before we left for the airport. After finally getting a good night's sleep, she was the calmest she'd been on the trip.

Jake: How are you feeling?

Debbie: Most of all, I feel sad. I mustn't allow myself to let that show.

Jake: Why do you feel sad?

Debbie: Well, in a way, I wish I hadn't come because seeing her again, it was even more than I thought, really. I thought I'd just feel this sort of affection and gratitude, which I do. Last night after the meal, when we sat alone outside when I didn't feel very well in that hot, stuffy place and I just thought I had to get some fresh air, and we sat on the bench and she stroked my hair. Her English is so much better now. She's saying, "You are special." I gave her the locket. I wanted to do that on our own. That was important to me. She loved it. She cried. Then she gave me that little broach of a little dancer, which was so sweet. She said, "I'm sorry, it's so modest." She actually used the word modest. I said, "Don't be crazy. It's the most precious-- one of the most precious things I've ever been given."

I think we both just felt so happy, but also so sad to know we'd probably never see each other again. I said to her, "We never know what's going to happen in the future, but let's be realistic." She's even sweeter than I remember. During the meal when we were all talking about ballet in the theatre, you know, her incredible knowledge, and I just realised what she'd become since that 19-year-old girl I said goodbye to. She's just become this incredibly learned, respected professor. I just feel heartbroken, but I can't do anything.

Jake: The fact that you're in constant-- in contact with each other and can still communicate and still express kindness and friendship to one another, then really-- yes, okay, it's not the same as hugging someone in person but it's not the same as losing them.

Debbie: Anyway, so it's all just very overwhelming. Part of me, as I said when I woke up only half an hour ago-- this is why somehow I just can't even string a sentence together-- it's like a wound's opened up in a funny sort of way because there's not many people in this world that I love. Who selfishly, more importantly, feel that they love me, and she's one of them. I don't know why. I just feel very sad. [silence] Anyway, darling, I've given myself a headache. I'm probably you. I'm going to go and have a coffee now, try and wake myself up.

The narrator, Jake: One of the peculiar things said about history, is how often it seems to repeat itself. It certainly felt that way once again with my mum and Natasha prepared to part ways at an airport, unsure of when or indeed whether they would ever see each other again. I could tell my mum was conflicted. This entire experience of actually reuniting with Natasha in person was joyous but also laced with sadness. I think any reckoning with your past can be difficult, especially dealing with trauma and pain, long repressed and hidden from view.

[music]

The old saying of a problem shared is a problem halved, may sound trite, but there is a truth to it. The ability to discuss pain with the ones you care most about can be daunting, at least it was for me. Going on this journey with my mum was also cathartic. Helping her find the woman who she truly believes is her guardian angel, someone I was supposed to be named after and who my mum is quick to always remind me, I wouldn't even exist without, has been something I will never forget. To me, and maybe some of you listening, in lots of ways, Natasha still feels like a bit of an enigma. What we know is that an act of kindness from a brave teenager has had a huge impact on my mum's life and forged a bond beyond the barriers of language, geography, or even time.

We know that Natasha is an incredible person, but also a guarded one, and for many a good reason. That's sort of it, right? I have to say, witnessing those in-person moments between them, reunited after half a century and half a world away from when it all began, I saw that their experiences and friendship both mean as much to themselves as they do to each other. The other details are sort of peripheral in the grand scheme of this one real moment.

Sandra: Has this experience changed your relationship with your mother?

Jake: Yes and no. I mean, I think I always had a pretty close relationship with my mum anyway, and we kind of,, mainly on her part, like to blur the lines between what you normally would talk to your children about. But I think I feel, hopefully, it's maybe more of a willingness to be open about maybe certain things that we weren't before. Because, you know, this was a big traumatic thing that hung over her for 50 years and having that fog cleared, I think shows that actually don't let anything hold power over you, and just be willing to talk about whatever, because you never know what the unintended consequences of those conversations may lead to, which is essentially what happened.

She told me something one day, and not too far in the distant future we managed to find Natasha. I think probably, maybe there's a willingness on both sides to be more honest and open with each other.

Debbie: Obviously, what you've done from here, just the shift, just even if there was no podcast involved or anything, Finding Natasha was the most wonderful gift you could have given me.

[music]

The narrator, Jake: Finding Natasha is a Message Heard production. It's hosted by me, Jake Warren, produced by Bea Duncan, and executive produced by Sandra Ferrari, with production support from Talia Augustidis.

Episode 5

Episode 5 

Don’t Cry, Debbie 

Debbie hears the other side of the story, and Jake has one more surprise for her. 

---

Transcripts

FINDING NATASHA, EPISODE 5

Jake Warren As you know by now, my mum's quiet hope of ever meeting Natasha again slipped into daydreaming territory over the years. She'd imagined what it would be like, but ultimately resigned herself to the fact that it might never happen.

Debbie Gayle And then, of course, my son became an investigative journalist. And he said to me one day, “Mum, you know, we can find her.” And I said, “Don't be ridiculous. All I've got is her name.” Well, it was equivalent to sort of Jane Smith in Russia. And I just thought it was utterly impossible and it never occurred to me that she would still be in Leningrad.

Jake Warren From Message Heard, this is the final episode of Finding Natasha. I’m Jake Warren.

To my mum. Natasha was a saviour. She'd always talked about her as if she was some sort of historical icon or a mythical figure rather than a real woman. And I understand why a bit better now. The whole Russia experience was such a whirlwind for mum. It became an almost fantastical tale for her as she replayed the story in her head over and over again. So, after I told mum that we found Natasha, they first exchanged a few e-mails. And then, it was finally time for them to talk. Under normal circumstances, I would have flown out to St. Petersburg with mum. But because of the pandemic, we just did it over Zoom, like literally everything else.

Debbie Gayle Shock and horror. I’m just looking myself... Jake Warren Anyway, understandably, mum was quite normal.

Debbie Gayle ... thinking, Who on earth is that woman with a huge nose that looks like a potato? Well, trust me. When you get to my age, you just... Well, you’re sort of – you’re sort of all right until you're fifty.

Jake Warren [CROSSTALK], you said?
Debbie Gayle [CROSSTALK] horribly.
Jake Warren Hi, Natasha.
Natasha Hello. Oh. Oh, my God. Debbie. Debbie, I thought you... Debbie Gayle Oh, my God.

Jake Warren Fittingly, because it was my gateway into this whole story, the call began with my mum thrusting at the camera that one picture of Natasha she's had since the seventies.

Debbie Gayle I have a picture. I've had it all these years of you. You look just the same.

Jake Warren The photo is one of my mum's most precious possessions. Natasha gave it to her just as they were about to leave her home for the airport.

Debbie Gayle She had two little photographs. And one, I put in a little silver frame. And I have had that by my bed with a – a baby photo of Jake just forever, you know. Forty-six years. When I saw her on the Zoom call, I – I’d brought this little photo out of my handbag and I thrusted it at the screen. I said, “I've had this picture of you all this – this time.” And she thought it was very funny. And she said, “Is that me? I can't believe it's me.” Obviously.

Natasha [INAUDIBLE]. This is me?
Debbie Gayle That is you. And you still look the same. You're wearing

glasses, though. I can't believe I'm seeing you. It's so wonderful. Natasha Debbie, I'm very glad to see you. You cannot imagine.

Debbie Gayle Oh, Natasha. I never wanted to get to the end of my life and not know that you were all right and that you didn't need me. And it's been wonderful to know that you have had this fantastic life and you stayed in the Mariinsky and you've become this great teacher, professor. I’m so proud.

Jake Warren So, Natasha does speak and understand some English. But Olga was on the call with us and translated most of it just to make sure that nothing got misinterpreted in between my mum's crying and Natasha's stoicism.

Olga Kuzmenkova So, uh, I think I'll – I'll just translate. Jake Warren Yeah.
Natasha [SPEAKS IN RUSSIAN]
Olga Kuzmenkova [SPEAKS IN RUSSIAN]

Natasha [SPEAKS IN RUSSIAN]

Olga Kuzmenkova So, Natalia just says that, um, she still can’t believe her eyes that she sees that same Debbie in front of her.

Debbie Gayle It's the same Debbie that's crying, that was always crying.

Jake Warren I could tell that my mum was nervous, but it was more difficult to read Natasha. At first, she seemed a bit distant. She had that stereotypical, unflappable Russian-ness about her. But then I started noticing that she had this look in her eyes. It was giving away something that her face wasn't. She was really happy to see mum. And it was an amazing moment. But it also felt a little strange. I don't know. Maybe there was part of me that didn't think Natasha was real, that she was just a story that my mum had told. But there they were, actually talking to each other.

Debbie Gayle I'm so grateful for her friendship and her care. Because I don't think Natasha realises how frightened I was, particularly when I got so ill and I was in a hospital. I don't know how she found me, but she did. One of the things Natasha always used to say to me was: “Don't cry. Don't cry.”

Natasha I remember. I remember it. It is in this moment I remember. Debbie Gayle Yeah. She’d say, “Don’t cry.”

Natasha Don't cry now. Don’t cry? Why do cry, Debbie? Why do you cry?

Debbie Gayle Happy tears.

Natasha [SPEAKS IN RUSSIAN]

Jake Warren After the initial shock of suddenly being in each other's lives again subsided, they started recounting the story of 1974. For the first time, I got to hear the other side of my mum's memories.

Natasha [SPEAKS IN RUSSIAN]

Olga Kuzmenkova So, Natalia says that, uh, when she was young, she learned English, and there was a small rhyme going as, uh, “Don't cry. Don't cry.” And that's how she learns this phrase. And, uh, that's why, when – when you were in the academy, this phrase kind of came back to her and that's why she kept repeating it to you.

Jake Warren But as they talked, little clashes of how they remembered things were popping up. Nothing about the facts of what happened. It was more the way that they thought about their respective roles in the story.

Debbie Gayle I felt like I was drowning, and she was like this wonderful log that I clung to.

Natasha [SPEAKS IN RUSSIAN]

Olga Kuzmenkova It was clear that you needed some help, and that you're obviously deserved to be helped, because you were a little and a lost young girl in a foreign country. So, obviously you needed a hand. It was just natural to help you.

Jake Warren I guess what to my mum felt like an act of heroism, in Natasha's view, seemed like the most natural thing to do. Someone needed her help, and so she helped. But still, it seemed that mum was desperate for Natasha to understand the power of what she did.

Debbie Gayle Well, she's was my guardian angel. And, of course, Natasha could not have realised at the time how ill I was when she got me out of that hospital. When she got me out and when I got back to England, they said I had hepatitis and I had malnutrition. And I remember when I saw her face in that glass window, it was the happiest moment of my life.

Natasha [SPEAKS IN RUSSIAN]

Olga Kuzmenkova It’s – it’s surprising that you were malnutritioned. It's confusing. Like, were – were there any problems with foods in the boarding school?

Debbie Gayle Yes. Big problems. Because until Natasha found me, I didn't even know where to go to eat in the canteen.

Jake Warren Mum went on to tell Natasha the whole story of how she got ill, how the food at the academy made the situation so much worse, how she lost appetite after getting sick, and how all of that landed her in the isolation ward. I'm not sure if, back then, Natasha even knew exactly what mum was going through or if these memories just weren't significant enough for her to remember. Either way, it almost seemed as if Natasha was hearing about what happened to mum for the first time.

Olga Kuzmenkova It’s terrible. Natasha That is terrible.
Olga Kuzmenkova Terrible, really. Natasha [SPEAKS IN RUSSIAN]

Olga Kuzmenkova That story of your illness, that sounds really terrible. But she thinks it's kind of time to get over this and try to focus on the best bits of that experience. She was wondering if you had any kind of positive memories from that experience. Maybe something in relation to ballet.

Jake Warren Something like this happened a few times during the call. Natasha challenging mum's perspective a little bit, nudging her to try looking at things more positively. They so comfortably slipped back into their old respective roles.

Debbie Gayle Well, it's – it's very difficult for me, because I should never have gone. I wasn't good enough. And I realised, when I arrived, that my dream of being in the Kirov school, I was not good enough. It was a huge reality check. And I went there in a dream, and it was a big shock to realise I wasn't the dancer that I wanted to be. And, of course, the conditions and the loneliness. But, of course, I realised how magical that school is. It has produced the best dancers in the world, and it was an honor to be there. And I saw some wonderful dancers. But it was mixed. It... I didn't deserve. I shouldn't have been there. I didn't have the talent and the ability. So, it was very, very difficult. And I am ashamed and I felt a failure most of my life, because of that. That I had that opportunity and I couldn't cope. I couldn't keep up in the class. I very quickly got weak. And I am ashamed to say that, yeah, I was... Natasha was the first person who came along and showed me kindness and gave me apples and said, “Don't cry.” And she was my bright sunshine in that experience.

Jake Warren And the same thing happened again when it came to mum's dance training. Natasha said she didn't think mum had failed. Instead, she said that, intentionally or otherwise, she was simply placed in the wrong grade. You see, at the academy, they had eight grades and teachers drilled technique into the students relentlessly since they were little kids, preparing them for the grueling final years.

Natasha [SPEAKS IN RUSSIAN]

Olga Kuzmenkova Probably what's happened was that, upon arrival, they placed you in the sixth year based on your age and not based on your technical skills and your technical knowledge. That's probably why you felt that the experience was so difficult.

Jake Warren Mum had dwelled on the darkness of her experience for a long time. And so, hearing these things from Natasha freed her up in a way. Over the almost two-hour long call, I noticed a subtle, almost imperceptible shift in

her. She, all of a sudden, became eager to talk about the happy stuff. That's coming up after a short break.

[MIDROLL]

Debbie Gayle One of my strong memories is we both were in love with Mikhail Baryshnikov, who had just defected to the West, unfortunately. That broke Natasha's heart, ‘cause she was in love with him. And I had a big crush on him, too. And he had gone literally two months before I arrived. And we used to talk and laugh about Baryshnikov. But we were not allowed to talk about it too loud, because his name was... You know, the Soviet Union. You don't mention...

Natasha Mmhmm.
Debbie Gayle ...anybody who's affected then. But we both were in

love with Baryshnikov.
Natasha [SPEAKS IN RUSSIAN]

Olga Kuzmenkova You see... Uh, so, Natalia says, you see, that that is happiness.

Debbie Gayle Yeah.
Olga Kuzmenkova And these are kind of happy moments.

Debbie Gayle Yeah, yeah. Of course. Of course. And I have a memory of Natasha taking me down to the basement where she had a friend called Jenya.

Natasha Yes, yes.

Debbie Gayle And Jenya would make us coffee, strong like Turkish coffee. And it was so delicious. And this strange pot and the three of us, it was big secret. I mean, you know, I don’t... I think we weren't supposed to be there, drinking this coffee that Jenya somehow got a hold of. Does she remember Jenya?

Natasha [SPEAKS IN RUSSIAN]
Natasha As a matter of fact, Natalia talked to Jenya just two days ago. Debbie Gayle Oh, my.

Natasha And she told her that Debbie found herself and that they became back. And that she asked Jenya if she still remembers Debbie. And Jenya said, “Of course, I do.”

Debbie Gayle [INAUDIBLE]

Natasha [SPEAKS IN RUSSIAN]

Jake Warren As I was sitting there, listening to them catching up through the medium of Olga, the mundane newness of this moment dawned on me. For some reason, I expected the conversation to be dramatic, emotional, and full of decades-old revelations. And perhaps it would have been if it had not been happening over Zoom. But at some point, it hit me how incredible this not so exciting nature of the call was in and of itself, because it sounded like two old friends catching up. After fifty years, they were just catching up. And it was also clear how much of a relief it was for mum to finally go over these memories with someone who was there, too, who could ease the burden of failure that she puts on herself ever since.

But like in all conversations between good friends, once you start talking about your celebrity crushes, it's very difficult to stop. Even if your son and two other people are sitting right there on the call with you. And so, we learned that one of Natasha's friends called [NAME] is a prominent Russian ballet critic who happens to be a close friend of Baryshnikov.

Natasha [SPEAKS IN RUSSIAN]

Olga Kuzmenkova Three years ago, [NAME] went to Paris where Baryshnikov performed. And, uh, Natalia happened to be there as well. And, uh, after the performance, [NAME] introduced Natalia and, uh, Baryshnikov. And...

Debbie Gayle Oh, God.

Natasha Yes. So, Natalia managed to see Baryshnikov in really close proximity, and they even kind of handshaked. And, uh, yeah. They kind of got to know each other.

Debbie Gayle Amazing. I’m so glad. You saw your loved one, at last, close up. Yeah.

Jake Warren I don't know if it was their mutual pining for Baryshnikov or something else. But after re-bonding over him, the energy of the conversation changed somewhat. Their perspectives that had been completely separate from each other up until now started to entwine.

Debbie Gayle I have so many special memories of you, of your kindness. And I understand that it's very different for her. Because for me, everything was so intensified, you know. I'm sure, to Natasha, I was probably just a bit of an annoying English girl that needed some help. But for me, it was huge. And I was so grateful. I do not know what

I would have done if I hadn't have met Natasha. I would have been in trouble. I wanted to find her for years and years, but I didn't want to cause her any trouble.

Natasha [SPEAKS IN RUSSIAN]

Olga Kuzmenkova So, the thing is, first of all, Natalia also wanted to find you, but it was not easy. And soon after you left Soviet Union, Natalia left the academy and she joined the theater. So, she became a dancer herself.

Jake Warren Natasha actually danced for five years. And during that whole time, she also studied ballet criticism by correspondence. Ever since graduating that course, she's been teaching at different ballet schools, eventually returning to Leningrad.

Natasha [SPEAKS IN RUSSIAN]

Olga Kuzmenkova When she was read your letter, especially that part when you said that you have been thinking about her all this time and that you – you’ve been willing to find her in the end, that it was the moment when she realised that, actually, yes, she has a happy life and that it is probably because you prayed for her.

Debbie Gayle It's because she deserves one. Natasha [SPEAKS IN RUSSIAN]

Debbie Gayle She was my angel, and angels deserve good things. And I'm so happy. I'm so happy that she has been successful and then she has a beautiful daughter and a little grandchild. Those are the most important things. There’s nothing more precious. She deserves those things.

Jake Warren As the call was wrapping up, there was one more full circle moment for mum.

Natasha [SPEAKS IN RUSSIAN]
Olga Kuzmenkova This is probably the room where you stayed. Debbie Gayle Oh, my gosh. Oh.
Olga Kuzmenkova It looks quite different these days, but... Debbie Gayle Yes.
Olga Kuzmenkova ... it is – it is – it is the same room.

Natasha [SPEAKS IN RUSSIAN]
Olga Kuzmenkova These are the paintings or the collection of Italian

paintings.

Debbie Gayle She didn't have those in 1974.

Jake Warren Seeing Natasha, sitting in the very room was she herself was nursed back to health, was, for mum, like looking through a portal on a computer screen, into her memories. They were the same, but also completely different from how she remembered them. Although in that moment, mum was also very focused on when she could see Natasha in person again.

Natasha [SPEAKS IN RUSSIAN]
Olga Kuzmenkova After she was allowed to travel abroad, she

traveled to Italy. And Italy is her favourite country.

Debbie Gayle It’s my favourite country, too. My Italy. The pasta, the art, language, the clothes, everything. I love Italy.

Natasha [SPEAKS IN RUSSIAN] Olga Kuzmenkova And also wine. Debbie Gayle Oh, yeah.
Natasha And red wine. Red wine.

Debbie Gayle [CROSSTALK]. And the cakes. The things that make life worth living, of course. Tell Natasha maybe we need to meet in Italy soon.

Olga Kuzmenkova [SPEAKS IN RUSSIAN]

Jake Warren None of us know when that will actually be possible, though. So, in the meantime, the two of them have been staying in touch online.

Debbie Gayle We, of course, now, we e-mail regularly and we’ve sent each other hundreds of photos. And as soon as this wretched pandemic’s over, I'm going to go and see her and meet her lovely daughter and granddaughter.

Jake Warren The big reunion happened months ago now. And ever since, it's been in my head. The whole point of this was to see a clearer picture of my mum as a person. Because, until now, as most of us with our parents, I only understood as much as she had given away herself. And the reality is that

Natasha was the only other person who was there alongside mum during the most formative experience of her life. The rest of us had no other choice, but to accept mum's framing of that experience.

And for years afterwards, she didn't speak to anyone about it. A mixture of isolation, disappointment, and craving for connection whirled around in her head. That way, her self-enforced narrative of failure was allowed to fester and eat away at her. But at least now, I recognise that. And I don't take that narrative as an absolute truth, because there's so much more to mum than that.

And back when I'd spoken to Uncle Nic, I asked him why he thought mum understood herself through that negative prism.

Uncle Nic I think she's doing what we all do, telling ourselves the story of our life as we need to hear it at the moment. I'm suggesting that there's a very important reason why. She's doing it, because she needs to. And it doesn't mean to say that she'll always tell this particular story in this particular way. She may come to see it differently. But at this particular stage, extended stage of her life, she needs to see it in this way.

This is the kind of psychic stuff you have to go through, uh, and come through the other end by yourself somehow. And she may come to see it all rather differently. But at the moment, this is how she views her life. And there's a reason why she needs to tell herself this particular story.

Jake Warren Uncle Nic, I think, got straight to the heart of it. There's one thing about which I disagree with him, though. To me, it seems that the process of mum coming to see it all differently has already begun all the way back when she told someone her story the first time. Whether consciously or not, she was knocking over the first in a line of dominos, which is still falling now, as you're listening to this. And maybe that's why she was okay with me trying to find Natasha and making this podcast about it all. Okay with you hearing it. It has given her the opportunity to have her story told again. A little differently this time.

Sandra Ferrari Absolutely.
Jake Warren All right. You got to sit down again, Ma. Debbie Gayle Your hair looks greasy, darling.

Jake Warren Uh, thank you. Luckily, it's a podcast. So, one of the things which was quite essential to this story, which I think is particularly nice, especially how you and Natasha bonded, was

obviously, you know, great love of ballet, but also, you know, sort of teenage crush of Mikhail Baryshnikov.

Debbie Gayle Oh. Yeah. We both were madly in love with Baryshnikov. Yeah.

Jake Warren You know? And he’s – he's a superstar, right? Even in the West, he's become a famous actor. And...

Debbie Gayle Well, he was a great dancer. I mean, he – he was director of American Ballet Theater for a while. And... Yeah. I mean, he dabbled in acting. He was in Sex in the City and...

Jake Warren Yeah. I have not watched that. But apparently, that's a big deal. But he's also a very nice man.

Debbie Gayle Yeah, yeah. I've heard that.
Jake Warren But do you know why?
Debbie Gayle No.
Jake Warren ‘Cause I managed to get in touch with him. Debbie Gayle You’re joking.

Jake Warren No. I managed to get in touch with Baryshnikov. And he sent me a handwritten letter, which is addressed to you in beautiful, handwritten English.

Debbie Gayle Oh, my God. You’re joking. Jake Warren So, I'll read it to you. Debbie Gayle Oh, my God.

Jake Warren And then, you can keep it. He said, To Deborah, in his handwriting. He's got sort of a Shakespearian, beautiful handwriting. And it was a real... He's not an easy man to track down.

Debbie Gayle Oh, my God.

Jake Warren It was a convoluted way of getting in touch with him. But people were very generous and they put me in touch. And so, he wrote this. I’ll read it to you first. And then and – and then...

Debbie Gayle Yeah. You read it. Oh, my God. I just... My eyes are full of tears. I can’t see.

Jake Warren So, it says, Dear Deborah, a friend tells me that you and your friend Natasha shared a common idol back in 1974 at the Vaganova Academy. I'm certainly no idol, but I'm honored that you and Natasha found inspiration in my career. It sounds like you and she enjoyed deep and true friendship. And I believe that to be one of the truest gifts there is, especially when tested by time and geography. I wish you and your family all good things in life. Stay well. Stay safe. All the best, Mikhail Baryshnikov.

Debbie Gayle Oh, how sweet. What a lovely, lovely man. Can I write to him? Can I meet him?

Jake Warren What? So, you could tell him that you’re still in love with him? level

Debbie Gayle So, I can tell him I’m still in love with him and I’m single. Jake Warren Yeah.

Debbie Gayle Oh, my God. That’s so amazing, darling. Oh, God. I wanna kiss you. Oh, it’s so [INAUDIBLE]. He’s still devastatingly handsome. He must be [INAUDIBLE]. Unbelievable. And I don't need any birthday or Christmas presents for the rest of my whole life.

Jake Warren Why do you think I’ve done this?

Debbie Gayle Because finding Natasha and then the letter from Baryshnikov and doing all this is... Well, I already knew you’re the best son in the world, but you've definitely proven it. And also, I'd just like to quickly add, as I've been droning on about my failure and underachievement, and I’d just like to say, um, if I had the choice between being that super great, wonderful dancer I wanted to be or having had you, being your mum, do you know?

Jake Warren It would have been the dancer?
Debbie Gayle You can say no. It’d be having you. You're the best thing

I've ever done. You're my great achievement.
Jake Warren Thanks, mum.
Debbie Gayle Thank you, darling. And thank you, Sandra.
Sandra Ferrari You’re welcome. This is like watching your life happen.

Jake Warren Finding Natasha is a Message Heard production. It’s hosted by me, Jake Warren, and produced by Sandra Ferrari and Jake Otajovič. Edited by Jake Otajovič and executive produced by Sandra Ferrari. A huge thank you

goes to Olga, whose translating and detective work meant that mum and Natasha could finally be reunited. The theme music is by Matt Huxley. Thank you so much for listening to the entire story. If you enjoyed it, share the podcast with friends and family who you think would enjoy it, too. And follow Message Heard on social media for news and updates about other shows we’ve got coming out in the future.

#

Episode 4

Episode 4

Home Sweet Home 

Debbie returns home and renounces her past. Fifty years later, Jake prepares his mum to confront it. 

---

Transcripts

FINDING NATASHA, EPISODE 4

Debbie Gayle Hi.

Jake Warren Hi. There we go.

Debbie Gayle Can you see me?

Jake Warren No, no. I can’t see you.

Debbie Gayle Good. ‘Cause I look all awful.

Jake Warren Don’t worry. We're not – we're not doing a video call. We’re just doing it to your mobile. Um, what are you doing right now?

Debbie Gayle Sitting, smoking. Feeling stressed. Wondering what the point of me not throwing myself out the window is.

Jake Warren You live on the ground floor, anyways. So, it doesn't matter. Um, anyway, I've got, um, I've got some good news.

Debbie Gayle Yeah?
Jake Warren Um...
Debbie Gayle I could do with some.
Jake Warren Well, that's good, ‘cause I've got some. So... Debbie Gayle ‘Cause my life is absolute shit.

Jake Warren Mum, shut up. Stop being weird. Um, so, I have... Well, not just me, you know. Me and – and my team. Uh, when lockdown started, um, you know, we were looking into... I’ll just come out and say it. We've found Natasha and we’ve made contact with her, uh, and spoken to her.

Debbie Gayle Well, I couldn't believe it.

Jake Warren Yeah.

Debbie Gayle Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Are you sure it’s her?

Jake Warren Yeah. We’ve spoken to her. And she said that, of course, she remembers you and, you know...

Debbie Gayle She saved my life.
Jake Warren Yeah. Well, we found her. And she's fine and well.

Debbie Gayle Oh, I’m so glad. Did you see her? Jake Warren I've seen pictures of her.
Debbie Gayle What does she look like?

Jake Warren She looks a lot like the, um, the one sort of grainy picture you have of her as a teenager. I mean, she's well. She's, uh... Lives in St. Petersburg. She still technically owns that same flat that you have the address for.

Debbie Gayle Well, did she marry and have children?
Jake Warren I don't know. I don't know. I haven't spoken to her yet.

Um, my colleague...

Debbie Gayle Oh, my God. Oh, I can't believe it. I mean, I can’t believe it. I loved that girl. She – she came to the hospital when I was just dumped there and put in isolation room. She took all those risks. And she – she saw me through the window and she put a finger to her mouth. Shush. She came and shoved open the door and she got me out. Oh, my God. I hope she's had a happy life.

Jake Warren Well, you'll find out soon.
Debbie Gayle When you talk to her, I want you to tell her that if it

wasn't for her, you would not be here.
Jake Warren I will tell her that. Yeah. I’ll tell her.

Debbie Gayle It’s the truth. I was so ill. Their idea of treating me in a Soviet hospital in 1974 was to starve me.

Jake Warren Well, look, mama. So, I’m gonna speak to her and I'll connect you to her really soon. But yeah. I just wanted to tell you that, obviously, we found her and she's alive and she's well. She still works in ballet. She actually is a professor at the Vaganova.

Debbie Gayle No.
Jake Warren Yeah, yeah.

Debbie Gayle Oh, my gosh. Oh, my God. Is she... Wait, she became a ballet teacher?

Jake Warren I think she – she...

Debbie Gayle She was a – just a secretary. She was working on a scholarship. She had a passion for ballet.

Jake Warren She’s a professional in some capacity. But like I said, look, I – I haven't spoken to her yet. Only my colleague Olga has. But...

Debbie Gayle So, I would come into your office to do, like, a Zoom call or something, wouldn’t I? Is that how we do it? ‘Cause I can’t sort of do it from my end. It's bloody impossible. And this stupid bloody iPad, I feel like throwing it on the...

Jake Warren I'm not sure it's all the iPad’s fault. But yes. That would be very tricky.

Debbie Gayle Well, of course, it's the bloody iPad’s fault. How can it not be the iPad’s fault?

Jake Warren Well, hey, mum...

Debbie Gayle Well, I mean, you’re the cleverest boy in the world, and that's given me a real boost, because I honestly was sitting here thinking I was going to throw myself out the window. But now, I think... Actually, I really want to see the Natasha. Jeez. Because it was so such a horrific memory, I just blanked it for decades. I wanted to just make sure she's all right and if she needs anything, you know, then I can... It’s my opportunities for prayer. But it... So, [INAUDIBLE] after what you say, that she probably doesn't need anything. It sounds like maybe she's made a good life. I really hope that she’s okay. Anyway, that's amazing, darling. What can I say? If you wanna make a podcast, [INAUDIBLE], darling. If any... If you think anyone would be interested in my stupid, poor life. But the – the point is I didn't go on and become a successful ballerina, did I? Sorry. [INAUDIBLE].

Jake Warren No, no. And look, this is – this is a big emotional thing. And I think...

Debbie Gayle I didn’t even know where the cafeteria was or that awful food was. And I wandered around.

Jake Warren Well, look.

Debbie Gayle She’s the kindest, sweetest human being I ever met. And she did take some real risks that people today can’t possibly understand, because they don’t understand the world it was [INAUDIBLE]. And all the other girls, they’d all have nothing to do with me. Anyways, sorry. I'm just so overwhelmed.

Jake Warren Don't worry about it, ma. I'll – I'll ring you and speak to you in a bit. Okay? Just, you know, let it digest for a little bit. Okay?

Debbie Gayle Yeah.
Jake Warren From Message Heard...

Debbie Gayle All right, darling. Bye. Jake Warren This is Finding Natasha.

Jake Warren I love you, mum. Bye. Jake Warren I’m Jake Warren.

So, after Natasha came to get my mum out of the hospital, they walked out through the backdoor and onto a snowy field. They got very lucky that no one saw them.

Debbie Gayle She snuck me out. A huge risk to herself. And we walked across the snowy field with me crying as usual and her gambling in Russian, obviously telling me to be brave and to stop it. And I did understand some words. She said she was taking me home to her mama, which she did indeed. And we had to wait by a bus stop. And when the bus arrived, the doors opened. And it was literally, like, sardines in a tin. And I was incredibly weak and could barely stand. And I remember her looking extremely worried and saying, “We have got no choice.” And she shoved me into this bus and held me up. Obviously, no seats. And we were on that bus—I don't know how long —until we arrived where her elderly parents’ flat was in one of these huge Soviet blocks.

Jake Warren And there, waiting for them, was Natasha's mother.

Debbie Gayle So sweet. She must have been scared, really, for Natasha. It’s a bit of risk turning up at that time with a Western girl in half [INAUDIBLE]. And she put me to bed and her mother made me some soup, and I felt warm and I felt safe.

Jake Warren They took her in. Natasha's mother cooked for mum, and she even slept in Natasha's own bed.

Debbie Gayle I used to say to her, “You'll get in trouble. You'll get in trouble.” But, you know, with this selfishness of a scared, needy person. I – I said it, but I just was... I’m just so grateful. And she had no intention of abandoning me.

Jake Warren This was a regime where, according to the officials who were preparing mum before the trip, people could be in danger just for having Western currency on them. And so, Natasha’s family knew they were taking a huge risk. They were showing mum more care than the British government,

who sent her to Russia, ever did. But at the end of the day, the British were the only ones who could get a home safely.

Debbie Gayle And Natasha said to me, “I've got to go.” And I didn't want her to go. She promised me she'd come back. And Natasha went to the British Consulate in Leningrad and she said to them, “You need to know the English girl is very sick.”

Jake Warren A little while later, Natasha came back.

Debbie Gayle And she said to me, “They know. They're arranging for you to go home. You can go to an English hospital and you'll get well.” And, uh, she was the instrument of it all. The British Consulate never visited me. They never contacted me. But they obviously arranged my flights. And Natasha had access in the office at the school. She got my passport.

Jake Warren Just like that, this was all about to end. Yes, she was dangerously ill and terrified, relieved that she'd be able to go to a hospital back home. But leaving also meant that her big Russian ballet dream was about to slip away along with the one person who she felt any closeness to back then.

Debbie Gayle And she got a taxi to her mother's flat. And she helped me get dressed. I had nothing. No bag. But she had got my sheepskin coat from the dormitory. I’d had a little space where I had a few things that were hung up. One was the very expensive sheepskin coat that my dad had bought me. She brought that and whatever else she could find and, obviously, my passport. She had the tickets and she took me in the taxi to the airport. And, uh, we walked into the airport. And I remember the guards, literally, as we were going through passport control, they tapped me on the shoulder and said something to me in Russian. And Natasha said to me, “You have to take a coat off. They want the coat. Let them have it.” So, I mean, I couldn't have cared less. I was just so desperate to get out. And I took the coat off. I handed it to one of the guards. They looked me over to see if there's anything else worth taking, that I had a watch or anything, which I didn't. And then, I remember looking at her, and she said to me, “No. You go through” and “I can't go any further.” And I had nothing to give her. All I had was these little gold earrings in my ears.

Jake Warren They were simple gold earrings.

Debbie Gayle So, I quickly took them out of my ears and I just tell her, “I have nothing else to give you” and “I owe you everything and I'll never, never forget

what you've done.” And we hugged each other. And I did think then, God, I hope she doesn't get into terrible trouble.”

Jake Warren This moment was the last time that my mum had ever seen Natasha. There were no direct flights from Leningrad to London back then. And so, she had to fly through Stockholm. And when she finally touched down in London, despite my grandparents’ ugly divorce, they both came to pick her up at the airport.

Debbie Gayle I remember my mother bursting into tears when she saw me.

Jake Warren They were completely in the dark about what it had been like for her in Russia other than a few letters mum sent to my grandmother, to which, by the way, she never got a reply. And so, they had no idea just how sick mum really was. All three of them only realised once she saw a doctor back home.

Debbie Gayle I was in Guy's Hospital. I had to be treated. I had hepatitis. And I was... Also, they said to my parents, I was suffering from malnutrition. Hardly surprising. The doctor said to my mother when I was in Guy’s, “She's very sick. And if she had stayed in that Soviet hospital with no nutrition and no medical intervention, she...” I could have died. I mean, he basically said to my mother, thank God, I got out when I did, ‘cause it would have been a very bad scenario.

Jake Warren Once the doctors diagnosed her with hepatitis, she was able to start getting treatment. It was going to take months before she'd be strong enough to dance again. But getting back to ballet wasn't at the top of their mind anymore. That's coming up after a short break.

[MIDROLL]

Debbie Gayle The overwhelming feeling I had at that time, apart for feeling ill, was one of failure, really. Absolute, utter failure, you know. Because I'd sort of gone off in this golden blaze of this great dream. And, of course, I came back this sick, scared, very, very unhappy girl who realised that I certainly was never gonna be one of those great Russian dancers. My dream was in tatters. I felt humiliated in a way. I put everything into this dream. Of course, looking back, it's oh, so stupid. And the worst thing, I think, was the fact, you know, I didn't have the backup when I got back. ‘Cause, obviously, my parents were going through this divorce. My father had left home and, in fact, he was now living with someone else and about to become father again. And my mother was very unhappy and very stressed. She begged with her nurse.

Jake Warren Mum returned to a home that was just as dysfunctional as the one she'd left. Her parents treated her as they always had. What she'd gone through didn't seem to make much of a difference to them.

Debbie Gayle I just remember being, when I finally got home, very isolated and very lonely. And the only way I could deal with it was by blocking it out.

Jake Warren And these few months, I think, was so important for what came next. It seems that this is when mum internalised that feeling of being a failure and the shame that came with it.

Debbie Gayle And, uh, yeah. Hepatitis is a horrible thing, really. You have all sorts of horrible side effects. Depression is one of them, which didn't help on top of feeling the world's biggest failure, um, my parents’ dreadful divorce and everything else. And that’s... So, I was a pretty miserable, mixed up young girl.

Jake Warren But once she managed to get better physically, she thought that maybe she could try going back to ballet. That was how she'd always coped before.

Debbie Gayle And I didn't really start dancing again for about six months. I lost so much muscle. I was just incredibly weak. Incredibly weak. I went back to class, to Anna Northcote, my teacher, who was absolutely... I remember her face when she first saw me in the classroom, one of absolute shock at how weak I was and I couldn't do anything. And I think she, uh, she was pretty upset and shocked. I think what happened was it's like in a love relationship, you sort of know that it's over or, you know, that the dreams you had for this person or this relationship—well, in my case this career—are over, because... And this, you know, this is a bad thing, really. It's such a sign of arrogance, you know.

I always loathed mediocrity and I never want... I always thought, you know, if I can't be really good, I don't wanna do it. I – I just... I think the reality check of me seeing these wonderful dancers the same age as me, something died in me. Something just died in me. And ballet is not the sort of thing you can do half-heartedly. Particularly physically, you’re under par, you know. And I fought to get back my strength. And I never really did. And I think, mentally, I had so many issues, which weren't dealt with. You know, I didn't really have anybody to talk to. And I buried everything. So, I was such a mess, because it was so surreal. I thought nobody would really understand or even believe me if I started to say some of the things that I’d lived through or witnessed or... It just

was easier to just not talk about it, really. And, also, every time I did sort of think about it or mention it, I just, as I say, I just felt this feeling of absolutely retched failure.

Jake Warren I feel like it makes so much sense that this is how my mum dealt with what happened in Russia. It's pretty much exactly how her father coped with his past. But there is a small difference. And it's the thing that makes me most sad about all this. Rather than setting her sights on the future, she got stuck in this narrative of her life that started all the way back when she returned from Russia, one all about her not being good enough and about being a disappointment to anyone who ever saw any potential in her.

And, eventually, ballet became a symbol of this story to her. So, it became easier to let it go.

Debbie Gayle I mean, I did go on and dance for a few years, but my heart was not in it. And years later, when I was, you know... I married and had a different life and blah, blah. I never wanted to go to the ballet. I never wanted to listen to music. And I just sort of... As I say, it's like a relationship. You never want to see that person again. You don't want to be reminded of broken dreams. But with the expanse of time, that went. And I now love, love to go to the ballet. I love to watch the great dancers and the young people today. The young dancers today are incredible.

Jake Warren For years, mum remained silent about her trauma. But then, she got older. She built a family of her own and, slowly, she started feeling safe to open up. It was when I was born, in 1990, that she shared parts of the story with her brother. I asked him how he felt when she finally told him.

Uncle Nic The immediate questions that certainly popped into my mind is: Why am I only finding this out now? Why did mum ever speak to me about this even if, Debbie, for understandable reasons, didn't want to? Uh, why didn't dad ever mention it? It was clearly a seminal moment in a sadly seminal moment in her life. The fact that she nearly died of hepatitis, the fact that she came back absolutely skeletal by all accounts, this was significant stuff. Nobody told me. She didn't tell me. My parents didn't tell me.

Then, the corollary of this of, course, is: Does this reflect on me? I remember thinking, Is this some failure in my personality such that they think, “Well, why bother to tell Nicki, ‘cause he wouldn't be interested anyway?”

Jake Warren Over the last few decades, mum's story took on a life of its own and our family. None of us knew all the details. And Natasha was just a

mysterious, distant figure. We had no clue why she meant so much to mum. And I wasn't the only one who tried tracking her down. Because he felt guilty that his sister didn't feel like she could trust him with her pain, Uncle Nic wanted to help ease it.

Uncle Nic Perhaps what spurred me on to think, Right. I must find this girl if I possibly can. Where do I begin? Shall I write to the Russian Embassy and say, “Please help me?”

Jake Warren But back then, before the days of the internet, it was an impossible task. Natasha was a girl with a very common name in a very big country and on the other side of the world. And that's the way it stayed. Until last year, that is. When just after the pandemic started and I moved back to my mum's to keep her company during lockdown, I finally started seriously looking for her. And I never imagined that it would only be a few weeks between getting in touch with Olga Kuzmenkova and mum speaking to Natasha for the first time since 1974, albeit on Zoom.

Jake Warren Are you gonna attempt any Russian?
Debbie Gayle No. ‘Cause I don't speak in Russian. I never... I had a

few words. And it's forty-six years ago and I blanked whatever I had.

Jake Warren Dad always said that you were really good at swearing in Russian.

Debbie Gayle Years ago. Well, I'm not gonna do.
Jake Warren Is this the first Zoom call you've ever done? Debbie Gayle I've never done a Zoom call before.
Jake Warren This is a day of double excitement.

Debbie Gayle Well, shock and horror. I just... Looking at myself, thinking, Who on earth is that woman with a huge nose that looks like a potato? Well, trust me, when you get to my age, you've just [INAUDIBLE] higher and higher and higher. Well, you’re sort of – you’re sort of all right until you're fifty [CROSSTALK].

Jake Warren [CROSSTALK], you said?
Jake Warren Hi, Natasha.
Natasha Oh. Oh, my God. Debbie. Debbie, I thought you... Debbie Gayle Oh, my God.

Jake Warren Hear Natasha's side of the story on the final episode of Finding Natasha. It's in this feed right now. Finding Natasha is a Message Heard production. It’s hosted by me, Jake Warren, and produced by Sandra Ferrari and Jake Otajovič. Edited by Jake Otajovič and executive produced by Sandra Ferrari. A huge thank you goes to Olga, a Russian PI extraordinaire, without whom we'd never found Natasha. And the theme music is by Matt Huxley.

#

Episode 3

Episode 3

Isolation 

A simple mistake marks the beginning of the end of Debbie’s dreams in Russia. Jake gives his mum some much-needed good news. 

---

Transcripts

Finding Natasha, Episode 3

Jake Warren Hey, Olga. How are you?

Olga Kuzmenkova Hey. How are you?

Jake Warren Olga called me again just two weeks after she said she'd tried getting in touch with Natasha. I was feeling a little anxious when she said she wanted to talk to me. But also...

Jake Warren Excited.
Olga Kuzmenkova That's the good thing, because I do have some great news,

actually. Um, Natalia, uh, got in touch with me.

Jake Warren Only then, I realised that Natasha is actually the anglicized version of the Russian name Natalia, which is why you’ll hear Olga calling her that in all our conversations. I also realised that I say “wow” a lot when I'm excited.

Jake Warren Wow.

Olga Kuzmenkova Yeah.

Jake Warren Amazing.

Olga Kuzmenkova So, um...

Jake Warren Wow.

Olga Kuzmenkova Yeah. So, she wrote me an e-mail and, uh, it says that she still remembers your mum and that she would be happy to connect with her.

Jake Warren Wow. That's so exciting. That’s fifty years of, um, not knowing my mum is – is over, I guess.

Jake Warren I was excited, but I also started feeling nervous about what my mum's reaction to the news would be. It could be overwhelming for her. What if she wasn't ready to confront her story? But at this point, I'd gotten too far not to tell her.

Anyway, Olga managed to find Natasha on Facebook and she wrote to her. Olga Kuzmenkova But she didn't respond to my message.

Jake Warren Next, she got in touch with the Vaganova, the ballet academy where Natasha teachers.

Olga Kuzmenkova So, I wrote them an e-mail.
Jake Warren Explaining the someone she's working with in London is trying to find

Natasha. First, she expects to hear back from the school.
Olga Kuzmenkova And then, there is just an e-mail coming from Natalia.

Jake Warren Natasha said, yes, of course, she remembers Debbie Gayle, that they were friends back then, and that she would be happy to talk to her again.

Jake Warren In a very short space of time, we've gone from “Oh, I wonder what happens to this woman” to finding her Facebook to her actually getting in touch and e-mailing you to saying she remembers my mum and she, you know, knows she's up for talking. And you've done it about two weeks what we couldn’t do in fifty years, Olga. So, you’re much smarter than us.

Olga Kuzmenkova Oh. Don't say this. I don't know how to react to this kind of stuff.

Jake Warren Oh, sorry. I won't. Okay. You get back in touch with her. I'll tell my mum in the first stage that, you know, we found her. And – and then, we can figure out how the hell we’re gonna do this.

Olga Kuzmenkova Sure.
Jake Warren From Message Heard, I’m Jake Warren, and this is Finding Natasha,

which I guess we just did.

So, back in 1974, my mum was still in Leningrad. At that point, Natasha wasn't an echo of the past yet. She was a new friend who made life a little easier for her. The two of them, along with Natasha's friend Jenya, used to spend a lot of time together. They’d drink coffee together, talk about how they all fancied Mikhail Baryshnikov.

Debbie Gayle There were two girls who were just warm and friendly to me. Sandra Ferrari So, you’re a part of something?
Debbie Gayle I felt part of something,

Jake Warren But like back home, her life still mostly revolved around ballet. Her main focus was becoming a world famous ballerina. She was dancing with the Soviet Union's best young dancers and she was meant to be one of Britain's best. She believed it, too, until, little by little, she started realising that it wasn't going to be that easy.

Debbie Gayle I was struggling. I... The biggest shock was I went into the classroom and the floor was raked. That was a big shock. The floors in Russia, unlike in the West, they're raked, which means they're slanted.

Jake Warren Basically, the floor was sloped, meaning it was slightly higher up at the back of the stage than it was at the front.

Debbie Gayle So, your whole balance, you have to readjust your whole balance. That completely threw me. I don't think I could even stand up very well to start with. If you're trained on it from child, obviously, it's completely normal. And the – the stages of all the Russian theatres were raked. So, the dancers were used to it. They grew up with it. They can then adapt to a flat floor easier. But if it's the other way round, it's very difficult, actually. Um, so, that was the first shock. The second shock was the realisation that I, although had some talent and aptitude, obviously, I was absolutely out of my league. The dances were exquisite. Because I was now in Russia, it was the ultimate. It’s like being a movie star to get to be a ballet dancer, to be, you know ... It’s a huge thing in Russia to be in the Kirov or the Bolshoi. So, they had the crème de la crème and they took the absolute best. You know, there was a reason that the Kirov produced these amazing dancers. And, um, I could not compete. I – I was seventeen. I hadn't had the previous training of that level. And in all brutal honesty, I don't believe I had the ability to have made up for lost time. And, um, and that was a terrible shock. So, there was a lot of shocks and a lot of huge reality checks. And although I was seventeen, I sort of became like a lost seven-year-old in mainly floods of tears from morning ‘til night. I felt like I was drowning, because not only was my dream being shattered, I was being forced to take a very stark look in the mirror at my own abilities or lack of them.

Jake Warren So, even though she had the comfort of Natasha's friendship, things were tough. She had already had to face rejection once as a dancer after being denied by the Royal Ballet Academy. In her mind, Russia was her last chance to prove herself. But at the Kirov, ballet stopped coming so easily to her. And it wasn't just the sloped stages that turned dancing into an uphill struggle for her. Mum wasn't eating well. The Soviet diet was worlds away from the food she knew from home. And she started to get ill as a result.

Debbie Gayle I very quickly lost a huge amount of weight. I became desperately homesick. And it's – it’s the overwhelming shock of... It's really difficult to – to – to describe. But, um, nothing prepares you for the grey. The greyness of it. It's dusty. It was – it was – it was shocking. The best way I can describe it is, when I came back, I remember being quite overwhelmed by the

color. Everything was so colorful. Everything was so bright. It almost hurt my eyes. But, of course, you know, the young people I was with, they knew no different. That was the world they were born into. So, they were chattering amongst themselves. They were working out. They... Of course, most of them had families or loved ones or support. But there was always that underlying atmosphere of distrust and secrecy. And, you know, I could never be part. I could never join in. Even if I had spoken perfect Russian, I would not have been accepted.

Jake Warren My mum recognised this feeling. She'd felt like an outsider before. But this time it was more intense despite having Natasha. It was magnified by language, culture, and losing ballet as an escape. And very quickly, things got even worse. More on that after a quick break.

[MIDROLL]

Debbie Gayle I started to get sick after about three months. And I believe it was from drinking water. Um, I remember going into the bathroom, actually. Ugh, one of my biggest horrors where their toilets, which were just in a long line. There was no divider, no door. And I remember I couldn't... I just couldn't go. I found that very difficult. That was very strange. That was pretty standard Soviet stuff. And the basins, that's where I drank the water, I remember, because the water that came out with the basins on the other side of the bathroom was a really suspect color, brown color. And I did drink it.

Jake Warren Even today, it’s not totally safe to drink water from the taps in Russia. And it definitely wasn't safe back then. There was a whole bunch of different diseases you can get from drinking unsanitary water—cholera, diarrhea, dysentery, or hepatitis —which, to be fair to my mum, she had no way of knowing. No one had warned her, whether before she left the UK or after she got to the school. So, on she went and drank from the tap in the school toilets.

Debbie Gayle That's when it started. I started to get stomach pains and fevers and night sweats. And I – I didn't tell anybody. I had no one to tell other than Natasha. I think she knew I was starting to get sick. I didn't know what to do. And then, I went downhill very quickly and I got incredibly weak. And I remember, one morning, I literally could not get out of bed. And bed, that's a laugh. It was a wire thing. But I remember lying on this hard bed thing and I just remember thinking, I cannot, if my life depends on it, get out of this bed. I was just... I felt so ill.

Jake Warren Mum must have been doing so badly that Natasha told someone at school.

Debbie Gayle That night, and it was in the night, some men and women came into the room where me and the other four girls were sleeping. And this big, sort of Russian babushka lady, she woke me. She said to “put on this dressing gown and boots,” and I was told to go with them. And she helped me, I remember. And I do remember going down the stairs, out through the main doors, just in this dressing gown and boots. And these two guys in uniform, medical uniform. And I was helped into an ambulance. I kept asking where I was going and why this was happening. And I – I, as usual dissolved into tears. Um, and I was taken to a isolation hospital just outside the city of Leningrad. Um, that's when the nightmare really began.

Because in those days, Soviet hospitals were pretty terrifying places, at the best of times, and they didn't know what was wrong with me. I was very, very sick and, uh, had a fever and various other symptoms. And they put me in a room and they locked the door. And it had a huge window, so I could look through the window and they could look at me. There was one bed, one table, and a door that led into a small toilet and basin.

And I remember just feeling overwhelmed or relieved that I was able to lie down. And they must have given me something to make me sleep, because I think I just lost all track of time. But I remember waking up for the first time properly and looking through this big glass window into the corridor and banging on the window, because, obviously, the door was locked. And that was the first time I felt really scared. Really scared, because I thought, “What – what's gonna happen?” And they were only giving me water to drink, ‘cause I ... Oh, I think they thought it was best to starve it out of me.

Jake Warren It's tough hearing this, not only because of how terrified she must have felt then, but also because of how lonely it must have been to keep this part of the experience to herself in all the years since. It upsets me that she was treated this way. Well, not treated, really.

Debbie Gayle These two sort of large Russian nurses would come in, and they were very sort of sweet in the sense of they would stroke my hair and I'd cry and plead with them and they would gabble in, rushing at me. But they always locked the door behind them and they never gave me anything to eat. And I kept making gestures that I was hungry and... But they... I just couldn't get through to them.

Jake Warren One question I keep asking myself is: Where was the British Embassy while all of this was happening? Their complete lack of support was the final ingredient to the perfect storm of nightmares that this cultural exchange had become.

Debbie Gayle That’s a very good question. They didn't know that I'd been taken ill. And, obviously, they hadn't played a proper part, anyway, because there was no embassy in Leningrad. There was only a consulate. And, uh, afterwards, when all this came out, there was a bit of a stink, because the consulate was actually away skiing for the first, I think, month that I was there. So, nobody came to the school or... They obviously had been told that there was a young English girl in the school, but nobody visited me and, certainly, nobody knew I'd been taken to this hospital.

Jake Warren In the hospital, the days and nights became interchangeable for mum. Time became discernible only through the isolation ward’s vague patterns. The nice nurses would visit mum's room every now and then, comfort her a little bit. But otherwise, she was just locked in there alone for days.

Debbie Gayle I remember becoming fascinated by my hip bones, because they protruded more and more. There was nothing to read. No work. No one. There was nothing. I just remember in this room and I remember thinking, I could die here, and no one's even gonna know. And the nurses would come in three, four times a day. I would cry, and they would smile and stroke my hair and make noises to me. But nothing changed. And then, one day—I don't know how many days down the line—I was sitting on the bed, and then, it was like a vision. I saw her, Natasha. I saw her face through the glass. I thought it was a mirage. And she put a finger to her mouth like that. She went shush. Like, her finger to her mouth. She knew what a crybaby I was. And I squealed and jumped up and down. I started banging on the window. And I see her sweet face now with her finger like that. Shush, shush, shush, shush. And then, I realised, Well, this is a problem, because the door's locked. But luckily the door was locked from the outside. And Natasha opened it and she came in. And I have never in my life been more relieved the moment when she came and put her arms around me. And she gave me an apple. I've always hated apple since then. But anyway, and, uh, she said, “Don't cry. Don't cry.” And I, of course, immediately started saying, “Oh, Natasha. I'm so scared” and blah, blah. And she just put a coat around me. My boots were in the room. She put my bare feet into the boots. I put the coat on. She wiped away my tears. She said to me, “Be quiet.” She took my hand. We went through the door. We walked down the corridor. There was no one and nothing. And when we got to the end of the corridor and there was a fire door. You know, one of those big bolts. She pushed it. And the door opened, and we went out. We were straight out on to a snowy field.

Debbie Gayle Hi.

Jake Warren Hi. There we go. We’ve got it working.

Debbie Gayle Sorry?

Jake Warren I said we’ve got it working. How’s it going? Can you hear me?

Debbie Gayle Uh-huh. Yeah. I haven’t got anything working. I don't know what you're talking about. Nothing works.

Jake Warren No. No. I’ve got it from my end. But you can hear me okay is what I’m saying. Okay. Just one

Debbie Gayle Can you see me?

Jake Warren No, no. I can't see you. We're just doing a [CROSSTALK].

Debbie Gayle Good. ‘Cause I look awful. Huh?

Jake Warren That’s all right. We’re not – we’re not doing a video call. We’re just doing into your mobile.

Debbie Gayle Good.
Jake Warren But anyway, um, I've got, um, I've got some good news. Debbie Gayle Yeah?
Jake Warren Um...
Debbie Gayle I could do with some. ‘Cause my life is absolute shit.

Jake Warren Mum, shut up. Stop being weird. Um, so, I have ... Well, not just me. You know, me and – and my team. When lockdown started, you know, we've been looking into... I’ll just come out and say it. We found Natasha.

Jake Warren My mum's reaction and the next part of her story are coming up in episode four of Finding Natasha, which is ready for you to listen to right now in this feed. Finding Natasha is a Message Heard production. It's hosted by me, Jake Warren, and produced by Sandra Ferrari and Jake Otajovič. Edited by Jake Otajovič and exec produced by Sandra Ferrari. And a huge thank you for her help with actually finding Natasha goes to Olga Kuzmenkova. The theme music is by Matt Huxley.

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Episode 2

Episode 2 

Enter Natasha 

Debbie travels to Russia and things go downhill quickly. Jake makes an important discovery. 

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Transcripts

Finding Natasha, Episode 2

Jake Warren The 1970s felt like a decade of change. The Beatles, one of the UK’s biggest cultural exports, rocked the Western world when they announced their split.

VO The event is so momentous that historians may, one day, view it as a landmark in the decline of the British Empire. The Beatles are breaking up.

Jake Warren Cold War tensions that have been building up over the last decades began easing, starting with the US deciding to pull out of Vietnam.

VO After nearly eight years of fighting and more than four years of negotiations, US troops will withdraw in sixty days.

Jake Warren There was a sense that an era of cooperation might be arriving. In 1971, Communist China was permitted to join the UN.

VO The moment was a turning point in history, foreshadowing vast changes in international relations.

Jake Warren And two years later, the UK became the ninth country to join the European Economic Community.

VO Almost the final chapter in ten years of hard bargaining, with the signing of the Treaty of [INAUDIBLE].

Jake Warren In 1974, a Labour Government led by Harold Wilson was elected. VO And the story has a night. Labour is now set for having a clear, overall

majority.

Jake Warren They were expected to be far less anticommunist than their conservative predecessors. That year, especially, new possibilities were opening up. My mum, for one, had made a huge life-changing decision: To study dance at one of the world's greatest ballet academies in the Soviet Union.

Debbie Gayle I didn't know how it's gonna do it. I mean, it was a very, very tricky time. This is 1974.

Jake Warren I'm Jake Warren. And from Message Heard, this is Finding Natasha.

So, my mom's dance teacher, Anna Northcote, knew that her dream was realistic. This kind of trip to the Soviet Union wasn't unheard of. It was actually one of the British government's main diplomatic tactics during the Cold War. Their military power didn't compare to that of the Americans or the Soviets. And so, they did a lot of cultural

diplomacy. They were sending British ideas and culture straight to the Russians. That, Anna Northcote explained to my mum, was how her trip to Russia could actually happen.

Debbie Gayle She said there's an organisation called the British Council, and the British Council was the UK’s international organisation for cultural relations and educational opportunities.

Jake Warren The British Council is an organisation within the British Foreign Office. They had done this kind of work with the Soviet Union since 1955. And then, in 1959, this relationship was formalised when the two governments signed an agreement to establish relations in the scientific, technological, educational, and cultural fields. This meant exchanges of scientists, artists, or students.

Debbie Gayle And they had had quite a few up until the early seventies. I think they'd had a pianist who went to the Moscow Conservatoire. They'd had a few exchanges. But they had never had a ballet exchange scholarship between the school. They'd never had that. And Anna Northcote thought, Well, this is possible. Although when this process started, there was a lot of things against me.

VO Mikhail Baryshnikov of Leningrad doing a Solor’s dance from Bayaderka. Baryshnikov’s technique is faultless. His interpretation, magnificent.

Jake Warren Mikhail Baryshnikov, one of the greatest living legends of ballet and stars of the Kirov, defected from the Soviet Union in June 1974. Back then, he was a star all over the world. He is still considered one of the best to have ever danced. Although, to some, even more impressive than his ballet, was his role in Sex and the City as Carrie's boyfriend, Aleksandr.

Carrie Bradshaw Well, it’s very red downstairs.

Aleksandr Petrovsky They said that it's what's expected of Russia.

Jake Warren But anyway, back to June 1974. Baryshnikov was on tour in Canada with his ballet company, the Bolshoi. And one day, while walking around Toronto in between performances, Baryshnikov somehow managed to get away from his KGB handlers. He dodged into a crowd of people. He lost the secret agents who had been watching his every step. He jumped into a waiting car and head out until the Canadian government granted him asylum. It was an embarrassment for the Soviet Union. And the defection happened right around the same time as the plans for my mum's potential exchange were being made, thanks to Anna Northcote.

Debbie Gayle I don't know actually whether she knew someone in the British Council. But the British Council were made aware of my violent wish to go. I think it was the synchronicity, really. Because I think they were looking for a cultural exchange that would give them a bit of... A bit more high profile. And the British Council agreed to fund a scholarship for a young ballet dancer, either to the Bolshoi or the Kirov.

Jake Warren But before giving the scholarship to my mum, they needed to make sure she was good enough.

Debbie Gayle I remember they asked the most important person in British ballet to come and watch me in a class, and that was the great Dame Ninette de Valois, who founded – sat as well as founded what went on to become The Royal Ballet. She was the Mother of Ballet in England. And she amazingly agreed to come. I was in a class with quite a few other people. And I remember her coming in with several other important-looking people. And she sat down and she watched the class. And I was terrified. But at the end of the class, I was introduced to her and I shook her hand. And she had these amazing Irish twinkly, blue eyes. And I curtsied and said something inane. And she smiled at me and said, “That's interesting, isn't it?” is what I remember her saying. “That – that would be an interesting thing, for – for a young Englishperson to go to the Soviet Union.” And, uh, she obviously, uh, agreed that it was worth sending me. I don't think she saw any spectacular talent in me. Otherwise, I would have thought she would have wanted me for The Royal Ballet. But she saw I had a physical aptitude and some talent. And she obviously just said yes, you know. And I was then awarded the scholarship.

Jake Warren She’d be going to the Kirov in Leningrad for a full year. This kind of success is what her mum had wanted for her ever since that first ballet class. And she was hoping that, maybe, her dad would also finally be impressed. She couldn't wait to tell her parents.

Debbie Gayle My mother was delighted. My father wasn't really around at that time. The day before I went, which is, obviously, many months later— ‘cause there's so much to organize—my father returned to our family home, maybe to collect some stuff. He said he wasn't living there. And he knew I was due to travel, I think, the next day. And he was in his study. And I went in there and I have a very clear memory, because it's the first and only time I ever saw my father cry. Um, and I said to him, “Well, daddy, aren't you excited for me?” Um, you know, I was just so unbelievably naïve and had no idea what I was going into. And his eyes filled up with tears and he said, “No. I'm

frightened.” And I said, “What do you mean?” And he said, “You don't know what they’re like.”

I didn't understand his comment. He appeared to be very negative about Russia and Russians. And, of course, I – I had no idea at that time that, uh, he had a brother, a older brother. Um, Lóczy / László, a beautiful young man. Uh, he ... We believe he perished at the age of twenty-four on the Russian front. He was made to fight. The Russians made the Jews fight for them. Young men fight them. And he died of typhus on the Russian front, we believe. And, uh, it's difficult for me, because my – I grew up under a wall of silence. My father never, ever discussed. It was just simply too horrific, what had happened.

Jake Warren If you remember, my grandfather arrived in the UK as a child refugee. He was able to get here for a British rescue program called Kindertransport. But only he was allowed to immigrate this way. And so, his older brother Lóczy had to find a different way out. He had two options. He could stay where he was and risk being taken to a concentration camp or he could try going east, to the Soviet Union, which is what he did and then died fighting for the Soviets during World War II. My grandfather repressed thoughts about his brother's death. And my mom's trip must have awakened something deep within him. He was afraid for her, afraid of history repeating itself.

Debbie Gayle You know, the Russians, they had quite a brutal history. And, um, he was scared for me. And rightly so. And he wept. And I remember being extremely shocked and a bit annoyed, because I thought he wasn't giving me the support and he should be just [INAUDIBLE] me with great praise and telling me everything was going to be wonderful. And it wasn't like that. But interesting as well. I remember saying to my mother just before I left that daddy had burst into tears when he said goodbye to me. And I remember her crying, because she could not bear the thought of him crying. So very sad, really, ‘cause, obviously, she had still had very deep feelings for him and she was immensely distressed to think of him distressed.

But I mean, it was all irrelevant to me, really. I just was too busy in my fantasies, that I was going somewhere absolutely marvelous, that someone's going to wave a magic wand, and I was suddenly going to have this marvelous training and become this marvelous ballerina. And, uh, looking back, I mean, it all sounds so, so stupid, really. I had just no idea what I was going into. But I suppose, to be fair to myself, not – not many people at that time had any idea how tough it was in the Soviet Union in the 1970s. And the few people that had gone and experienced life that they'd been allowed to see and experience. And I was actually joining a school, you know, living a life and seeing things

and experiencing things that the Soviet girls and boys were, um ... We didn't really know how tough that was. And as it proved to be particularly tough for a rather spoiled, mollycoddled, privately-educated, soft girl of seventeen, I, you know ... It was a pretty horrendous shock.

Jake Warren Of course, this was going to be more than just a trip. It was also a diplomatic operation. The foreign office was planning the exchange in great detail. And because it could actually be dangerous for mum, they tried to prepare her for it.

Debbie Gayle I was asked to go and did go to this very scary, officious- looking office in the mall, a white hall where three men in grey suits sat on the opposite side of the table. And I sat in front of them. And they told me a lot of peculiar things that didn't make any sense to me. Like things I mustn't discuss, things I must show interest in, things I mustn’t ask, things I should be careful of. I mean, they may as well have been talking to me in Mandarin, really. I just remember sort of gazing around the room, being far more interested in this fusty office and just wanting to get out of there as soon as possible, really. I... It was all just a bit surreal. I do remember one of the men saying to me, “You do understand, Debbie, don't you, that if a Russian person is found with foreign currency, it’s – that’s actually punishable by death. So, if you have actually got any sterling on you or you take sterling with you, you better make absolutely sure you don't give it to anybody.”

Jake Warren At first, I wasn't sure whether to believe what these officials apparently told my mother. But it turns out that having foreign currency was punishable by death, sort of. For example, for illegally trading large amounts of Western money. But neither warnings from these men nor her father before them put her off. She found a way to train at the Kirov, the greatest ballet academy in the world. Nothing would spoil that.

Mum arrived in Leningrad in autumn 1974, just before the start of the school year. And for all her excitement, pretty much as soon as she got there, it became clear that something wasn't right.

Debbie Gayle I realised I wasn't actually wanted. Uh, I had been thrust on this school. I was obviously gonna be a major inconvenience. And the other girls had been told to not have anything to do with me. You know, I was seen as a very suspicious. I was a westerner. I mean, if you saw a westerner, normally, in the Soviet Union at that time, you'd – they'd be greeted with great suspicion. And it was no different being a – a student in the school. And the girls, the few boys, they were told, basically, “Don't speak to her.”

Sandra Ferrari Did you find out at the time that you weren't wanted or did you find out after?

Debbie Gayle In my feeble attempts to be friendly to the four other girls that I shared this dormitory with. Simply wouldn't engage with me. I mean, obviously, my Russian was pretty awful and pathetic. But they didn't really respond. They ignored me. There was nothing in place, you know. No – nobody was put in place. Say, for example, you know, “Take her to the cafeteria” or “Show her where she gets her meals,” “Show her where she keeps her clothes or her...” You know? There was nothing like that. I was literally just dumped on them. The school didn't want me. And I was just simply left to get on with it. And I actually wandered around this huge building just trying to find out where to go. It was a huge shock and a brutal realisation that I was not gonna be welcomed and I was not gonna helped in any shape or form.

Jake Warren She came here as someone who'd never belonged anywhere. At home and at school, she felt a distance between her and everyone else. Here in Russia, it was meant to be different. But the same thing was happening again.

Debbie Gayle This is when Natasha comes in, because it was only a few days in. I think I started the crying then. And I remember sitting on some stairs outside of an office where I heard her typing. And I was crying. And this girl came out and she put her arm around me and she said to me in broken English, “What is wrong? What is the matter?” And, uh, I was like a drowning person, attaching myself to a log. There was this human being who was warm and kind and actually spoke a couple of words of English. And, of course, I immediately burst into floods of tears. And, you know, I think... And that was that. She was stuck with me. I found out where she works. She was a secretary in school, who loved the ballet, passionately loved the ballet. And that was as near as she got to it, working in – in one of the school offices. And she'd obviously heard about the English girl. But now, she was confronted with me and crying. And she helped me. She showed me where the cafeteria was. She showed me other things. She showed me where I could get... For example, I had no towels to wipe my face when I washed or... All these things, you know.

Jake Warren Natasha helped my mum in so many practical ways. Knowing how to get food or where to find towels made a world of difference.

Debbie Gayle She became my saviour.
Sandra Ferrari What did she look like at the time? How would you...

Debbie Gayle She was beautiful. She was a year older than me, about a year and a half older than me. I – I think she was eighteen-and-a-half. Something like that. She had green-y color eyes and brown hair and a lovely oval face. Very Russian-looking. Sweet. And the thing that I remember most about her was her innocence. She was incredibly innocent. And also very bright and hungry to know about the West. She was like lots of young people. She was obviously, you know, fascinated by the secret world that they suspected and seen a few little glimpses of. She had that sort of bravery. There was a bravery about her, you know. Um, she called herself a dissident even then.

Jake Warren Mum latched onto Natasha pretty much immediately. When she was with her, she felt something. Something that she hadn't really experienced much before. And their dynamic must have been a bit odd.

Sandra Ferrari So, would you say you – you two were friends then?

Debbie Gayle Well, it was impossible in the sense of friends that communicate. She had a few words of English, and I had a few words of Russian. It was more a younger girl collapsing hysterically, obsessively following around, and waiting for her outside the door of the office for her to come out, because she was the only friendly face. I looked towards her for everything. She took me out into the street. She bought me apples. She – she was kind and she was the only person who – who showed me any companionship or kindness.

Jake Warren In just a few weeks, it seemed like everything had changed for my mum. Her friendship with Natasha quickly led to making another friend.

Debbie Gayle Oh, yeah. She had a friend, Jenya, who also worked in the school. A little bit older than her. Um, and Jenya had this... I don't know if it was an office or a room, what she was doing quite in the basement. And we used to... She stayed down there. And Jenya to brew up this... It was like Turkish coffee in this funny little pot. And I remember being absolutely thrilled at the smell and taste of this coffee, because all we had, really, was that lukewarm Russian tea in a glass, which is quite disgusting. Yeah. And we used to go down there. And she and Jenya used – Natasha and Jenya used to gobble away in Russian. And I just loved it, because I felt warm and there were two girls who were just warm and friendly to me.

Sandra Ferrari So, you were a part of something? Debbie Gayle I felt part of something.

Jake Warren Coming up after a very quick break, a pretty big development in our search for Natasha.

[MIDROLL]

Jake Warren A few weeks after we first spoke, Olga, the Russian investigator who I enlisted to help me find Natasha, got back in touch.

Jake Warren Hi, Olga. How's it going?
Olga Kuzmenkova Hi. Fine. I'm fine. How are you?

Jake Warren I'm good. Thank you. Um, so it sounds like you have uncovered exciting information.

Olga Kuzmenkova I have found something. That is true. So, um, I found Natasha.

Jake Warren So, it turns out finding Natasha wasn't as difficult as my mum thought it would be.

Olga Kuzmenkova I think she lives in St. Petersburg, uh, still. Jake Warren Wow.
Olga Kuzmenkova And probably by the same address.

Jake Warren At least not when you're a professional people finder, have access to the Internet, and are actually able to use it unlike my mom.

Olga Kuzmenkova What I did is I checked her address, and it seems that she still owns the flat.

Jake Warren Not to sell Olga short, though. She did have to do some detective work. Olga Kuzmenkova The paper you have given me with the details on Natasha

and holding her name, they have her name spelt in the wrong way.

Jake Warren Which, in our defense, Olga says it's pretty common. Russian names are usually spelt differently than how they're pronounced. But once she figured out the spelling, she found two women with Natasha's name, living in what is now St. Petersburg, formerly Leningrad. One of them...

Olga Kuzmenkova Is sort of prominent, and she is known for her historical novels. So, she's a writer.

Jake Warren This Natasha was a few years younger than our Natasha would be. But Olga couldn't cross her off the list just yet. Only then, she found a picture of the right Natasha.

Olga Kuzmenkova And I was absolutely sure that this is her and that this is the person we've been looking for.

Jake Warren Olga cross-referenced the name with the address that my mum remembered.

Olga Kuzmenkova And, basically, I just Googled everything else.
Jake Warren So, this was probably not the toughest case Olga’s ever taken on. But

she found out that Natasha has lived in St. Petersburg her entire life.

Olga Kuzmenkova She used to study at the State Institute of Performing Arts and became qualified as a theatre expert.

Jake Warren After graduating, Natasha became a cultural journalist who has been writing articles about ballet ever since the seventies.

Jake Warren Also, I think what's important from my mum's perspective is, for fifty years, she's kind of had a bit of a cloud over her, fearing that by Natasha helping her and, you know, saving her life, that she would have been punished and, you know, suffered, because of her intervention and helping her. And I think, you know, just from the information that you've given us there, that, clearly, she's prominent in, you know, the St. Petersburg and Russian ballet world. You can kind of gather from that that maybe that's not the case and, maybe, actually she didn't suffer any consequences for helping mum. And I – and I think she will be so glad to hear that, because I think it will be, like, a weight off their shoulders.

Olga Kuzmenkova Yeah. I think we have to connect with Natasha and ask her about this story. Like, was she getting some sort of punishment for what she did? It might be the case that she was sort of punished by being prohibited to be a dancer, because that's something that was done in that years.

Jake Warren It turns out that before Natasha became a critic, she was a dancer herself. Mum remembered Natasha being a secretary of the school. Some of the smaller details are understandably hazy for her, hidden beneath a fog of time and trauma. So, Olga is right. The only way I can find out what really happened is by actually talking to Natasha herself.

Jake Warren Well, thanks, Olga, as always. It was nice to chat to you.

Olga Kuzmenkova You’re welcome.
Jake Warren In the next episode, we reach out to Natasha.

Jake Warren So, I guess we'll just wait to hear from you once you’ve – once you’ve kinda chatted to her.

Jake Warren The woman who, back in 1974, saved my mom's life.

You can hear what happened right now in the same feed. Finding Natasha is a Message Heard production. It’s hosted by me, Jake Warren, and produced by Sandra Ferrari and Jake Otajovič. Edited by Jake Otajovič and exec produced by Sandra Ferrara. A huge thank you goes to Olga, without whom we could have never pulled this off. The theme music is by Matt Huxley.

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Episode 1

Episode 1

A myth and a dream 

Jake Warren explores a family myth about a mysterious woman in his mum’s past, and begins his search for her. Debbie Gayle recounts her difficult childhood and her dreams of ballet stardom. 

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Transcript

Finding Natasha, Episode 1

Jake Warren To dance en pointe means to balance, spin, hop, pounce, and linger all whilst on the very tip of your toes. It's strength and skill built up over years of arduous, almost ritual–like training. It is said that ballet dancers are not unlike violins. They are merely instruments on which choreographers perform, striving for perfection, mastering the art of ballet. It can't just be a matter of choice for a dancer, but of complete determination. Only if you dedicate your entire life have you got any chance of making it. Your feet are black, blue, and misshapen. But on you must dance and keep smiling.

I only know any of this because of my mum, Debbie. She was a ballet dancer. A really good one. She was someone who was earmarked for potential greatness. Nearly fifty years ago now, she became the first British ballet dancer thought to be good enough to receive a scholarship to train in the Soviet Union with the undisputed masters of ballet. Unfortunately, things didn't go well. Her time there was scarring at best, traumatic at worst. And it could have been much, much worse had it not been for an eighteen–year–old Russian girl called Natasha, who saved my mum and then disappeared from her life. So, that's what this podcast is about.

My name is Jake Warren, and this is probably the most important thing I'll ever do. I'm trying to understand what my mum went through all those years ago in the Soviet Union. I have no idea where this is going to go, but this is my attempt at finding Natasha.

For all intents and purposes, my life has been pretty standard. I was born and still live in London. My parents separated when I was just a baby. And although I saw my dad a lot, I grew up living with my mum. Now, if I was to try and objectively describe my mum, I would say she is warm, caring, and, frankly, a bit bonkers. She is definitely someone who lives in the moment. One of my earliest memories is of a small blackboard hanging in our kitchen all throughout my childhood, and on it was chalked, in her badly scrawled handwriting, Life is uncertain. Eat dessert first. My mum is a passionate animal lover. And now I might get into trouble saying this, but I feel she is very much turning into one of those crazy cat lady clichés.

Debbie Gayle You could teach, like, little rollovers. [INAUDIBLE]. Are you gonna do the rollovers? Are you gonna do the rollovers? [INAUDIBLE].

Jake Warren That is my mum, Debbie. My Uncle Nic always says...

Uncle Nic Whilst her therapist said that she was clinically BIN (bonkers in the nut) her cats said she was damn perfect. And my sister's always gone with the

cats’ opinion rather than therapists’, which saves a lot of money on therapy incidentally.

Jake Warren Most people who meet my mum are completely disarmed by her personality.

Uncle Nic My dear sister, exasperating at times. Very, very good at shopping. Jake Warren I’m also reminding you that, in theory, the whole world is

listening to this. So, uh...

Uncle Nic Let me just backtrack, uh, a teeny–tiny bit. Someone who, in her time, was one of the most capable dancers of her generation.

Jake Warren Growing up, I remember there was always a bit of a shroud of secrecy over my mum's past. And as is usually the case with memories, there were gaps in the timeline. The very few details I did know were foggy at best. I knew my mum was a ballet dancer and I knew she was a good one. I also knew that she had danced in Russia at some point. But that was about the extent of my knowledge. It was just never discussed. Even my closest family didn't seem to have the answers.

Uncle Nic I had very little knowledge of what was going on. For example, Debbie flew off to Russia, and I knew nothing about this at the time. I didn't know she was going there. Nobody told me or I didn’t ask. Whatever. Similarly, I never knew when she came back.

Jake Warren The only thing I really knew was that even before I was born, I was supposedly destined to become a dainty ballerina myself and I was to be called Natasha.

Debbie Gayle As normal, I, uh, was convinced I knew best and I was convinced I was having a girl. And, uh, when I actually was taken to hospital, it was a little bit of a drama. I end up having to have an emergency caesarian. When I came round, the nurse was sort of tapping my cheek and she said, “Oh, Mrs. Warren, you've had a beautiful baby boy. And what are you going to call him?” Apparently, I said, “Natasha.” Whereupon my ex–husband looked very shocked apparently and said, “Don't worry. I will talk her out of that one.”

Jake Warren This Natasha was clearly someone really important to my mum. But I had no idea why. And at first, I didn't realise that she had anything to do with mum's love of ballet, which was always around when I was growing up. And although I wasn't really interested in ballet over the years, I'd picked up dribs and drabs of my

mum's past. It was never anything concrete, though. And it wasn't until just a few years ago when I learned what happened to her in Russia and who Natasha was.

I think she finally told me then, because she got diagnosed with cancer. She's fine now. But at the time, she thought she might die. And I don't know. Maybe she didn't want the story of Natasha to die with her. And so, one day, it wasn't a particularly special occasion or anything, but I remember it vividly and always will. One day we were sitting in the living room, and I could feel something hanging in the air like she wanted to say something, but she didn't know how to begin. So, I waited. And then, it just came: The whole story of ballet, of going to the Soviet Union at 17, of how she almost died there, and of Natasha.

When she finished, I was a little taken aback. There was so much pain in her past that I'd never noticed. I always assumed that, as my mum, she had it all together. And she's always been very open with me. Arguably, sometimes, too much so, which is why I never even imagined that she could have been holding something like this inside for so long. And at first, I thought it mostly came down to her just being worried about Natasha. She'd been wondering about this woman for decades. But the more I learned about the story, the more complex I realised Natasha's role was in it. Mum had tried to find her. But after a few failed attempts, she just sort of gave up.

Debbie Gayle I feel very guilty about that, really. I should have made more effort. I... Part of me was sort of frightened to do so as well. I – I sort of had a feeling that, perhaps, she wasn't alive anymore. I don't know why I felt that, but I did feel that for a while. And I just didn't know how to. I mean, you know, I’m a bit of a technophobe. I don't even have e-mail on my phone. I’ve just got the hang of texting, you know. I mean, you know.

Jake Warren I have to admit my mum's technological limitations do have an upside. She hasn't quite mastered how to stalk my every move on social media yet. But when she had finally shared the story with me, I guess my journalistic instincts kicked in. I decided there and then that I was going to either find Natasha or at least find out what happened to her.

I started a scavenger hunt, gathering the few materials and information I had or that I knew existed. I knew there was a grainy photo of Natasha that had lived by my mum's bed since before I was born.

Uncle Nic It was a beautiful old, teeny-tiny silver photo frame. There’s a picture this dark-eyed, obviously Slav-looking girl. And I used to wonder about it first. Who is this girl who seems to be planted amidst a whole host of otherwise recognisable familial faces?

Jake Warren I also remembered there were photos of my mum dancing from her time in Russia, probably in the attic somewhere. There was some press cuttings, too. I vividly remember this one headline from when I was little: The girl who caught Russian eyes. It had this big picture of my mum dancing at seventeen. Seeing that picture of her as a teenager made me think about what it could have been like for her going behind the Iron Curtain in the seventies , when the Soviet Union was viewed as the ultimate enemy.

Churchill From Stettin in the Baltic to Trieste in the Adriatic, an Iron Curtain has descended across the continent.

Jake Warren A notoriously restricted regime.
VO But one thing Stalin did not give them, their freedom. And that, to

countries outside the Iron Curtain, means all.
Jake Warren With the threat of nuclear war always on everyone's mind.

VO The Russian foreign minister maintains this silence about Russia's atomic progress in his address. He accuses the West of planning an atomic war.

Jake Warren It must have been overwhelming going there alone. And although she did tell me what happened when she got to Russia, she never actually explained why she went there.

I wanted to get the full picture. But for some reason, she didn't feel comfortable talking to me about it.

Sandra Ferrari I think it's normal. I think we just have an image of our parents that they're these super humans without issues. They also feel the pressure to maintain that illusion for us.

Jake Warren This is Sandra Ferrari, by the way. She's Message Heard’s head of production.

Sandra Ferrari But also, maybe, as your mother, she doesn't want to show that side of herself, that vulnerable side. It's a really hard thing to do. I can't even imagine talking to my own parents about that. It could be that she might be more comfortable talking to me, someone who's a bit more of a stranger to her.

Jake Warren I think so, because it's obviously really important. We need to understand why she went to Russia and how she went to Russia and all of the experiences and what led up to that.

Sandra Ferrari Okay. Well, let me give it a go.

Sandra Ferrari Well, first let's do, like, a standard kind of introduction. Like, what's your name? How old are you?

Debbie Gayle [INAUDIBLE] Sandra Ferrari Okay.

Debbie Gayle Well, physically, I'm sixty-three, almost sixty-four. But I think, mentally, I'm probably about... Maybe I'm nineteen now. Probably. I was Debbie Gayle before I was married. The name Gayle, actually, my father was Hungarian. He was a Jewish survivor of the Holocaust who escaped Hungary in the 1937. His parents had heard about trouble coming, and he was able to get a sponsor—‘cause they have family in America—to go to America. So, um, he was on a boat docked in Southampton. War was declared. Then, he never got to America.

But anyway, his name was István, which is Stephen in English, [INAUDIBLE]. So, when... Well, later on, he realised that he was never going back or able to go back. His entire family were wiped out in the Holocaust and he had to build a life in England. He changed his name. And so, what he did was he took the G, the A, the Y, the L, and he dropped the U, and he dropped the I, and he put an E on, and he got Gayle. Sorry. That's a really long–winded way to say my name.

Jake Warren My granddad was born in 1921 and was the only one of his family to survive the Holocaust. It was by sheer luck and some foresight that he got out through a Kindertransport. But for a brief period of time, thousands of Jewish children were allowed to escape the Nazi-occupied European countries. My granddad, being the younger of two brothers, was chosen to leave everyone and everything behind. After the war ended and he realised he had to get through life alone, he had to find a way to emotionally come to terms with it.

The story goes that my grandfather, who was a keen skier, went up into the Swiss Alps for two weeks in total isolation to ski and to just think. At the end of the two weeks, he had decided on two possible paths: He was either going to end his life there and then and be done with it or he was going to come back to life with a blank slate, never to discuss his murdered family ever again. Fortunately, the latter is the path he chose. But there was a lot of hurt, because of this decision.

Debbie Gayle I think something in him, almost in his personality, it was almost like shafted in two. And he became a very successful man. He was very a charismatic man. A very loving and warm and funny in some ways and credibly intellectual man. But on an emotional level, um, you know, he was

terribly, terribly damaged. Well, obviously, as anybody would be. So, with the shutting down of his past, I was fascinated and wanted to know about whether I had grandparents or none. [INAUDIBLE].

My mother has said to me very, very early on, “You must never, ever speak to daddy about his family, because this will cause him terrible pain.” So, I sort of had this shadow hanging over me and I didn't know and understand what it was or why. I just knew that it was something I could never talk about.

Sandra Ferrari So, you didn't feel close to him?

Debbie Gayle I did in some ways. I was desperate to impress him, looking back. He came from that generation where my brother, who is immensely talented musically—he was a brilliant at piano and he's since become a really highly respected academic writer. My father is sort of quite old fashioned, really. I think, you know, he was far more interested in my brother's education.

Sandra Ferrari How about – how about with your mum? What was she like?

Debbie Gayle I didn't have a good one relationship with my mother. I... It was good when I was a child. But as soon as I began to grow up into a young woman, sort of thirteen years old, it – it wasn't good. My mother was deeply unhappy. She married my father. You know, she was nineteen when she married him. He was in his early thirties, and my father wasn't ready or able to live the life of a settled husband. He was – he – he was a traveler. He never had to stop traveling. He was always traveling around the world.

But I think my mother was desperately unhappy and desperately lonely. And, um, it was the days before Prozac. Bless her. I wanna think she definitely needed some help.

Jake Warren It was in this environment that ballet presented itself as the perfect obsession and form of escapism for her. Although at the very beginning, even that was actually my grandmother's idea, an extension of her own unfulfilled passion.

Debbie Gayle She had always loved ballet. She loved the theatre. And she didn't really have any talent for it. But she loved it. And she... I remember she particularly loved tap dancing. She had these red tap shoes and she used to tap away in kitchens, sometimes, which was amusing. But she took me to a ballet class. The very first ballet class I went to, I was four.

Jake Warren And at first, she struggled. She didn't know whether it was because she couldn't accept that she wasn't good enough or because she wasn't the centre of

attention among all the other girls. Either way, she started acting out, not leaving my grandmother any choice, but to take her out.

Debbie Gayle So, nothing happened then until I was about nine. I don't know how it came about. But she took me to a local ballet teacher called Madame [NAME]. Couldn't make it up. Lovely lady. White Russian. And she said the magic words to my mother, which obviously were like nectar to her, is, “Oh, Debbie has some talent.” So, of course, my poor mother, you know, seized on this and thought, Right. Well, we'll run with this.

Sandra Ferrari Do you think she had a lot of expectations around what was going to happen for you in ballet?

Debbie Gayle She did. She absolutely did. And I think like anybody, you know, if you underachieve yourself, you tend to look to your child to – to do it for you. But I – I do remember I always felt different. I know that's so trite. Everybody says that. I felt different, because my mother never stopped reminding me that daddy was Hungarian and he was different. And he also spoke with an accent and quite a strong accent, which he lost over the years. He looked different. I knew subconsciously there was some big secret, because of his past. And I felt different, because I'd never just felt I joined in with the other little girls at school.

Jake Warren I think being different can leave you feeling like you're teetering on an edge. On the one hand, it can plunge you into the depths of your loneliness. But the slightest nudge can also tip you to the other side.

Debbie Gayle When Madame [INAUDIBLE] announced to my mother that she thought I had talent, suddenly, I thought, Oh. Instead of feeling different in this negative way, I suddenly felt this huge feeling of positivity, which I think I'd never felt.

Jake Warren After a short break, my mum decides that she wants to go to Russia. We'll be right back.

[MIDROLL]

Debbie Gayle With hindsight, I don't think I was particularly any more talented, really, than any other little girl. I – I had a natural aptitude. Physically, I was sort of made for it in a way. And my mum had made friends with someone who worked at the ballet school, who had gone to a theatre school called Arts Educational, which did ballet and drama and everything. And she said to my mother, “Oh, I think Debbie should go there.” And I went there just after I turned eleven.

Jake Warren At Arts Educational, they'd first learn normal subjects alongside performance arts. But a few years in, when someone showed real talent for a specific art form, they'd be offered to focus on it almost completely. When she was fourteen years old, my mum got the option to abandon all other classes in exchange for ballet. At first, dancing may have been about impressing her parents. But once she realised that she actually had a gift for it, she really fell in love with it. She didn't hesitate and accepted the school's offer.

Sandra Ferrari So, all your eggs were kind of going into one basket.

Debbie Gayle Yes, they were. Tragically. And I joke about. I say the word tragic, but actually, there's an element of truth in that. Because it's an incredibly hard life, ballet, and it can be a very, very unhealthy one. And I was very, very solitary. And I think when I started to specialise in ballet, it became this almost obsession and utterly overwhelming. And I didn't really have any normal life outside. And it's the normal life outside that prepares you for life, you know, because ballet is a short career anyway and, uh, it's a very tough one.

Sandra Ferrari Do you think it was because it would be the thing that could maybe connect you better with your parents?

Debbie Gayle I think, looking back on it, I, like most little girls, I was desperate for my father's attention, which I didn't really get, because he wasn't there very much. He was busy building his business. And he was this larger than life character and he would burst him for the door and give me a big kiss. And when he made money, then he’d usually give me some money and say, “Buy yourself a treat.” You know? So, I was always trying to get that attention. And I didn't get it.

That’s not because he was completely selfish. He... As I said, he lived his life the way he was able to live his life. And he did love me, but he just wasn't able to give me what I needed. And I honestly felt, when I had those magic words said to me, “Oh, you have a talent,” subconsciously, I thought, Oh, gosh. Daddy will be so proud of me. He will really notice me now. Um, but, of course, he didn't. He wasn't the slightest a bit interested in ballet. He didn't have a creative streak in him at all.

Jake Warren She was desperate to prove that she was good enough to make it to the top. And there was only one way to do that, making it to the Royal Ballet Academy.

Debbie Gayle That's when I had the first major disappointment of my life. I took the exam for the Royal Ballet school. And as far as I was concerned then,

I'd been told I was talented, I believed it, and I was desperate to join the great Royal Ballet school and, ultimately, join the company. And I took the audition. I think I just sort of assumed that I would get in. And I remember opening the letter at home and I think that was the biggest shock and disappointment I'd ever had.

Jake Warren She didn't get in.
Debbie Gayle And I can remember it now. It was almost physical. Like, I felt

I’d been punched in the stomach.

I think the people who were doing the additions, they probably saw our physical ability. But one of the most important things you need for classical ballet training is discipline. And I think they saw in me a lack of discipline. I mean, I did have some talent, obviously. But I did lack a discipline. I always had this slightly wildness to me. I can't – I can't really articulate it. But I was rejected. And it was a catastrophic thing for me at that time, because I did not know what else to do. I hadn't paid attention in my educational work. Not that they’ve stuck. It was very high in the stage school. But I just simply didn't bother.

Jake Warren Ballet was everything to her. Without it, she'd be completely lost. So, she didn't have many other options left, but to keep trying.

Debbie Gayle I just didn't know what to do. So, I drifted, really, into... There was a place called The Dance Centre in Covent Garden, where some very well-known and respected teachers gave open classes. And I started going there. And there was a teacher who, actually... Her name is Anna Northcote.

Jake Warren Anna Northcote was born in 1907 in Southbourne. As a young woman, she joined a Russian ballet company started by Sergei Diaghilev. The Diaghilev Ballet was the most famous dance troupe in Europe in the early twentieth century. It was called Ballet Russes, and they toured all around the world for more than two decades. Their blend of dance, opera, and drama made ballet mainstream again, and it launched Russia as the world ballet superpower.

So, Anna Northcote was an English dancer who danced with this company under a Russian pseudonym, Anna Severskaya. And after her career ended, she became one of the most respected ballet teachers in England. She started teaching at The Dance Centre in Covent Garden, which opened in 1964. And it was seven years later, in 1971, that my mum came to this school and studied ballet under one of Britain's best dancers.

Debbie Gayle And she saw in me some talent. And I think I then started to obsess, because everybody knew that Russians produced the greatest dancers. And I supposed I needed to focus. I was quite lonely. My father had actually left the marital home by then. My parents had began the quite hideous divorce procedure. And my brother was at boarding school and then he went off to college. So, I was in this house on my own. Quite a lonely, scared little girl, really. And I thought, Well, the answer to all my problems will be to go to Russia. I'll go to the finest school in the world, and they will make me a spectacular ballerina.

And all of a sudden, it’s so incredibly laughable now. And simplistic and unbelievable. And it actually, even then, was unbelievable. But that was the level of my arrogance. That I just... I remember saying to people, a few people, “I – I want to go and train at the Kirov.” And they just looked at me like I was completely insane. But I was always tenacious. I always had, as I said, that sort of wild side to me. And I just... I don’t know. Maybe you’d call utter stupidity. And I just became utterly obsessed and consumed by this idea.

Jake Warren It was an alternate reality in which she'd lead a dazzling life of ballet that would bring her the attention and validation that she so missed. So, she sets her sights on her highest goal. She wanted to dance in Russia, the greatest ballet school in world.

Debbie Gayle I didn't know how it was gonna do it. But, uh, when I confessed this to Anna Northcote, she was the first person. She said, “Do you know what I think? That... That's possible, Debbie.”

Jake Warren As soon as Anna said those words, it started feeling real.

In 1974, at the height of the Cold War, the wheels of diplomacy began turning. And my mum was put on course towards meeting a woman called Natasha, who would occupy her thoughts for the next fifty years.

Debbie Gayle I always worried whether she was all right. And I sort of promised myself that I would somehow make sure that she is okay. If she needed anything, if she needed help, that I would be there for her. But I didn't know how to do it.

Jake Warren Learning all of this about my mum's past made me realise that there was so much I never understood about her. She'd kept all this inside for decades. And I think that's because this story is about more than just Natasha. I think what happened with her in 1974 was a sort of breaking point. And so, finding Natasha might help me understand my mum a little better. That's why this is so important to me.

But in all honesty, I had no clue where to begin with a search like this. I knew I needed expert help. So, I asked an investigation specialist, who I trusted, a simple question: How do I find a ghost from fifty years ago and on the other side of the world, whose traces may have been lost in the years since the fall of the Iron Curtain?

Their answer was Olga Kuzmenkova, a Russian specialist investigator and people finder. She sounded like exactly the sort of rugged PI and grizzled expert I needed to move beyond my failing Google searches. But, actually...

Olga Kuzmenkova Oh, hi.

Jake Warren She was a lot less intimidating than I expected.

Olga Kuzmenkova What's up?

Jake Warren Hey, Olga. This is Jake Warren.

Olga Kuzmenkova Nice to meet you.

Jake Warren You, too. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me.

Olga Kuzmenkova Uh, no worries.

Jake Warren So, like I mentioned in my e-mail, there's someone I need help finding. And I was told you – you may...

Jake Warren Hear about Olga's search for Natasha and my mum's journey to Russia in the next episode of Finding Natasha. You can listen to it right now in this very feed.

Olga Kuzmenkova Okay.

Jake Warren So, my mum...

Jake Warren Finding Natasha is a Message Heard production. It’s hosted by me, Jake Warren, and produced by Sandra Ferrari and Jake Otajovič. Edited by Jake Otajovič and executive produced by Sandra Ferrari. The theme music is by Matt Huxley.

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