Jake Warren: Are we here?
Driver: Yes.
Jake: Thank you so much.
Debbie Gayle: Thank you very much.
Marius: Are you Debbie and Jake?
Jake: Yes.
Marius: Yes.
Jake: Is Natasha here? Is she inside?
Marius: No. Natalia is in her apartment waiting for some message.
Jake: Wow.
Marius: Well in any case we go in.
Jake: Yes.
Marius: You are welcome to come, and I will actually show you where we are.
Jake: Yes. Maybe we just dump our bags and stuff first, and then--
Debbie: I want to see Natasha first.
Jake: Oh, you want to see Natasha now?
Debbie: Yes.
[music]
The narrator, Jake Warren: Over a year ago now, I went on a journey. A journey to find Natasha, the mysterious teenager, who helped my mum, Debbie, escape from the Soviet Union in 1974. Somehow, we actually managed to find her. A lot has changed since then. Natasha and mum speak all the time, but it's still over the phone, over Zoom, and over email, until now, that is. From Message Heard, this is a very special bonus episode of Finding Natasha. I'm Jake Warren. If this is your first time joining us, welcome. I highly recommend you make your way to Episode 1 and listen to the story in full so far. You'll hear all about how my mum and Natasha first met via ballet in the Soviet Union as teenagers.
Debbie: "I'll go to the finest school in the world and they will make me a spectacular ballerina."
The narrator, Jake: Why Natasha had to help my mum escape.
Debbie: "I was taken to an isolation hospital just outside the city of Leningrad, and that's when the nightmare really began."
The narrator, Jake: How we found her again almost 50 years later.
Debbie: "Oh my God. Are you sure it's her?"
The narrator, Jake: If you've already listened, welcome back. A little recap for you. When I last spoke to you, my mum and Natasha had connected on Zoom for the very first time.
Jake: Hi Natasha.
Natasha: Hello.
Debbie: Oh. Oh my God.
Natasha: Debbie.
Debbie: Natasha.
Natasha: Debbie, I thought you--
The narrator, Jake: They had to communicate through a translator, but mum was able to ask Natasha some of the questions that had eaten away at her for decades. We even managed to get a letter from Baryshnikov, the legendary ballet dancer slash one-time Sex and the City star, who Natasha and my mom had bonded over a mutual crush of, back in 1974.
Sandra: Move a bit, Deb. Sorry. Don't move yourself, I just wanted you to feel comfortable, but have it closer to your mouth.
Debbie: Well, I can't feel comfortable because I can't smoke, and it's a hard uncomfy stool, and I haven't slept last night. I'm so tired, I just can't even remember my own name.
Jake: Perfect.
Debbie: This is going to be a disaster.
The narrator, Jake: The other voice you heard just there is Sandra. She's our Head of Production here at Message Heard, and co-produced the first series of Finding Natasha. You may not have heard her voice often during the series, but she was always there. In fact, she actually did almost all the interviewing with my mum, but this time around, we thought we'd try something new.
Sandra: So basically, I'm going to sit in the corner like a weirdo, and you guys are going to have a conversation, but I'm going to jump in every now and again.
Debbie: I've got to have a conversation with you?
Jake: That's a great way to start, isn't it?
Debbie: Yes. I didn't know you were going to be doing it. I thought Sandra was.
Jake: Well, Sandra's here in part of it as well.
Debbie: I know, but all right.
Jake: Is the idea of having a recorded conversation with your son that awful?
Debbie: Well, no, but sometimes you get on my nerves, don't you?
Jake: Thank you. Obviously, it's been over a year since Finding Natasha. How do you feel about the reaction to that? I know you were obviously nervous and obviously never been a part of something like this before.
Debbie: Yes. Of course. I wasn't really nervous about when you said you wanted to make a podcast, because obviously, that's what you do, and I wanted to help you in any way I could. Well, I think we both thought it was just a very niche thing, nobody would be that interested. Why would they be? Some woman who you've never heard of, who had an experience nearly half a century ago.
The narrator, Jake: Something we came up against again and again during the first series of Finding Natasha, was my mum's own perception of herself. Even though the podcast has gone on to be hugely popular, Debbie doesn't quite understand why anyone would care about her or her story. Despite that, the experience has still been one of huge catharsis for her.
Debbie: It was something I'd carried in me for decades, never really talked to anybody about, had buried a lot of feelings about it, didn't really want to remember a lot about it, certainly thought that this girl who had helped me, indeed saved my life, I was never going to have the chance to see again so that made me very sad, so I pushed it to the back of my mind. When I came in that day and sat in front of this microphone, and Sandra-- her lovely warm way, asking me questions, it was like the floodgates opened, and that's why I was quite embarrassed about it. I only listened to the podcast once, after it was done. I just thought, "Oh my God, it's like verbal diarrhoea." I couldn't shut up. It was just this massive release.
The narrator, Jake: The series came out over a year ago, in May 2021, in fact, but what exactly has happened since?
Jake: The conclusion of that was reuniting you with Natasha and being able to have that-
Debbie: It was incredible.
Jake: -wonderful call.
Debbie: Yes.
Jake: You're back in each other's lives.
Debbie: I know, and that is amazing.
Jake: What does that look like? How often do you talk? How does it work?
Debbie: When I saw her over the Zoom call, and I just thrust that photograph at the screen and started crying, I think it was lovely for her, but it's very different for me. Me finding her was much more obviously important because I was the one that felt this overwhelming need to thank her, see that she was all right because I always worried that she had got into trouble for helping me. So, yes, it was a bit one-sided. She was lovely. She's 68 years old, but I was just looking at this 19-year-old little angel. What happened afterwards, of course, as you know, is that we started to email. She, bless her, using Google Translate. We have constantly stayed in touch every few weeks.
The narrator, Jake: My mum's even been introduced to Natasha's granddaughter Carys. Natasha wanted my mum to help her learn to speak English. My mum's been doing this by reading her bedtime stories.
Debbie: This is a story for Carys. "Splash. Chameleon fell into the river."
The narrator, Jake: I was obviously roped in to help with the recordings and sending them across.
Debbie: "Coughing and spluttering, he scrambled aboard--"
The narrator, Jake: Throughout my childhood, Natasha was something of a myth. My family semi-knew the story. We knew the significance of someone named Natasha, but honestly, that was it. She was frozen in time for us as this teenager in the Soviet Union who bravely helped my mum out in her greatest moment of need. Now, she's real. She's part of the family, and my mum is part of hers. When Natasha and mum reunited over Zoom for the first time, they spoke about wanting to travel to Italy together. Sadly, that didn't happen. As if anyone needs reminding, the world has been recovering from a pandemic. Natasha is from Russia, which in 2022 became an even trickier place to travel to. A few weeks ago, we were presented with a once-in-a-lifetime slither of an opportunity.
Debbie: This is a very odd situation where this was someone who was incredibly important to me, as a young girl of 17, and I have not seen since 1974. We both lived our lives separately. I don't really know that much of what's happened to her and what she's gone through, and vice versa, so this is a huge gap, but there's a connection there that can never be broken. I was thinking about that actually the other day when I found out-- when she emailed me and said, "Debbie, I've managed to get a Schengen visa for 10 days to go to Helsinki. Can you come?"
Jake: So you basically felt it's now or never. If you don't-
Debbie: Well, it is.
Jake: -go to Finland, then you will possibly live your life with regret till your dying days that you never-
Debbie: Yes-
Jake: -got to see her?
Debbie: -of course. Of course. Although it's been wonderful, and we've reconnected, it's completely different to actually physically see someone.
Jake: How do you feel about that, the prospect of meeting her, actually hugging her and seeing her in the flesh, and it not just being emails or Zoom?
Debbie: Well, of course, I'm very excited about it. A bit nervous. I'm a bit worried she's going to find me a huge anti-climax.
The narrator, Jake: Helsinki is a far cry from the Amalfi coast, but this really could be our only chance to reunite them in person. Within days of receiving the email, we'd booked our flights to Finland.
Debbie: I've ordered this locket. I didn't have time to get it engraved. It just says, "Love" on it. It's a little art deco gold heart. I've ordered that. I will take that and give that to her. I wanted to give her a little present. Obviously, realistically, I probably will never see her again.
Tannoy announcement: Caution, you are approaching the end of the conveyor…
Debbie: It's now 6:20. We left the house at 4:00. I got off to sleep at about 2:00. I had some torture dreams for two hours, smoked about 10 cigarettes, and then the alarm went off.
Jake: Are you excited?"
Debbie: I think I'm too tired at the moment to be excited. Anyway, it all feels very surreal. I think if I'm truthful, if anything, I'm just a bit nervous.
Jake: I should have recognized that.
[music]
Aeroplane announcement: [Speaking Finnish] Hello, and nice to see you on board Finnair. Kindly stow your carry-on baggage in the overhead lockers or under the seat.
The narrator, Jake: I knew that this trip was going to be emotionally tough. Once again, just like 48 years ago, Debbie was going on a journey into the unknown.
Debbie: It's sort of dredged up lots of memories, flying and her. I know this is Finland and we're not coming into Russia, but suddenly, I could conjure up really clearly the feeling of absolute fear walking down the garden path from Kelsey Way, the house in Kelsey Way that I grew up in when we left for the airport. I think both of my parents took me to the airport-- I just remember the cold fear I felt walking down the garden path towards the car. We were leaving very early in the morning like we did, and it was dark.
I think the reality was hitting me that I was going to a strange place on my own. I didn't feel brave at all walking down the path.
Jake: Do you feel braver now?
Debbie: In what sense? I'm not having any tests like that now, am I? I was a young girl.
Jake: Do you feel fear?
Debbie: In what context? I'm not fearful anymore. What do I feel fearful for?
The narrator, Jake: She's still optimistic, and this time not alone.
Aeroplane announcement: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Helsinki. The local time here right now is some 27 minutes past--
The narrator, Jake: We were staying in a hotel, the same place that Natasha was staying.
Jake: Are we here?
Driver: Yes.
Jake: Thank you so much.
Driver: Good night.
Debbie: Thank you very much.
Jake: Oh God.
Marius: Are you Debbie and Jake?
Jake: Yes.
Marius: Yes. My name is Marius.
The narrator, Jake: We were greeted by Marius.
Marius: We have your car.
Debbie: Yes.
Jake: [crosstalk] Is Natasha here? Is she inside?
Marius: No. Natalia is in her apartment waiting for some message.
Jake: Wow.
Marius: Well, in any case, we go in.
Jake: Yes.
Marius: You are welcome to come, and I will actually show you where we are.
Jake: Yes. Maybe we just dump our bags and stuff first, and then--
Debbie: I want to see Natasha first.
Jake: Oh, you want to see Natasha now?
Debbie: Yes.
[music]
The narrator, Jake: In truth, I'm not really sure how to describe Marius. Imagine a Polish mathematics professor, a genius who spoke several languages, a renowned ballet historian across the world, and someone who spoke in a way that seemed he had an enormous quota of words that he simply had to get out each day, but he was also crucial in providing context. Natasha is a very humble person, so it was amazing to hear all the things via Marius that she wouldn't tell us herself.
Marius: She's very modest. She would be very embarrassed if I was to tell you, but Natalia, she's not just a professor-- She is the most influential-- Even famous former Grand Ballerinas don't have such analytical-- She is a great human being.
The narrator, Jake: Marius met Natasha 10 years ago via a joint love of ballet. He called her the most underappreciated, preeminent ballet expert in the world, and a close friend. He had a little glimmer in his eye. You could tell he cared about Natasha quite deeply. We finally reached our room and were able to have a bit of alone time. Debbie was irritable. The tension was thick in the air. Lack of sleep and nerves is a heady combination.
Jake: Right, so you just want to dump your stuff and just go see her, yes?
Debbie: Yes.
Jake: Okay.
The narrator, Jake: Then there was the window.
Jake: Right. Let's go. There's no point in keeping him waiting.
The narrator, Jake: The dreaded window.
Debbie: Darling, just see if you can open the window for me
Jake: Let's not worry about that now. That's not important. Get the present as well.
Debbie: I was going to give it to her later.
Jake: If you think it would be better to give it to her later--
Debbie: Just open the window.
Jake: I don't know if I can open the window. I'd be very surprised if--
Debbie: I can't stay in this room tonight without air.
Jake: The windows do not open.
Debbie: You're joking?
Jake: No, they do not open.
Debbie: I think there's a bit of tissue someone's left.
Jake: All right. Come on. One night. What do you care, seeing Natasha or that?
Debbie: Yes.
The narrator, Jake: I won't bore you with it, but this fixation on the window lasted another 20 minutes. While she'd been jumping to see Natasha just a few minutes before, whether it was the nerves or the lack of sleep, it was clear my mum was stalling, and while I wasn't showing it, I was nervous too. This was something Sandra and I spoke about before I headed out to Helsinki.
Sandra: Is there anything you're worried about with their soon-to-happen meetup?
Jake: It really does feel real, I think when you see someone in person. I worry for the sort of-- there's been this build up and build up and build up. What if they meet and it's anti-climactic in some way? I'm sure there'll be lots of emotion of embracing and hugging and saying, "Oh my God," and "Missing you," and all that kind of stuff, but I think that the idea of being able to sit down with someone in person and then suddenly rake over the past with a massive amount of nuance and emotional depth and all that kind of stuff, is that going to be possible or are we going to be reduced to Google translating, "What kind of soup do you want for dinner?" I don't know. That's a bit scary, because if you've got all of these emotions pent up inside you that you want to talk about and communicate, and you have no real way of communicating with that person, what's going to happen? A hug and a thank you in person is enough, right? Anything else is a nice-to-have and an added benefit.
The narrator, Jake: Finally, the home stretch of an almost 50-year journey. We were on our way to Natasha's room.
[music]
Natasha: Oh. Debbie.
Debbie: You are still Natasha. Oh my gosh.
Natasha: Hello, Debbie.
Debbie: Do you recognize me? I recognize--
Natasha: I don't understand you because I thought--
Debbie: You're just the same.
Natasha: The same?
Debbie: The same. Oh, I thought you were dead.
Natasha: Don't cry.
Debbie: Oh, that's what you used to say.
Natasha: Don't cry, Debbie. Don't cry. I am very glad. At last. At last, Debbie.
Marius: Come. Come.
The narrator, Jake: If you remember from the first series, essentially Natasha's catchphrase for my mum was "Don't cry, Debbie," which she learned from a children's book growing up. When my mum was in the Vaganova Ballet School in Leningrad, Natasha would always say to her, "Don't cry. Don't cry, Debbie." It's something that really stuck in my mum's mind, in her image of Natasha from that time. Marius was operating as a translator, although surprisingly, Natasha's English was a lot better than what we first thought.
Debbie: Marius, how do you say recognize? Does she recognize me?
Natasha: I recognize.
Marius: Of course.
Natasha: Yes, of course.
Debbie: You do?
Natasha: Yes, of course. Yes. I do.
Debbie: 48 years.
Marius: 48?
Natasha: 49.
Marius: Maybe 49?
Debbie: 1974, and it's-
Marius: Right. 48, yes. Sure.
Natasha: Recognize at once.
The narrator, Jake: They had a bottle of champagne, appropriately adorned with a picture of a ballet dancer on its label.
[Cork pop, and cheering]
Marius: [laughs] I apologise.
Natasha: Marius, [speaking russian].
Marius: [speaking russian].
Jake: It sounded like a gunshot. What is that in Russia? Is it pros?
Natasha: Prosit?
Jake: Yes. Is that-
Natasha: Na Zdorovie.
Jake: Oh. Na Zdorovie.
Debbie: Oh. Na Zdorovie.
Jake: Yes. Na Zdorovie.
Natasha: Do you remember Russian?
Debbie: I remember, yes.
Jake: Cheers. Na Zdorovie.
Debbie: Yes.
Natasha: For meeting. For our meeting.
Marius: All right. For this incredible meeting, right?
Jake: Cheers.
Marius: After 48, 49 years.
Debbie: What is 48 years? Nothing.
Jake: Thank you, Marius. I really appreciate that.
Debbie: It's nothing. It could be 48 minutes. [laughs] I just need to ask a few things that I have just boiled up in life in me, Marius, that I haven't been able to really communicate with her, although she's been using Google Translate, and also I was very aware through the email. I want you to please ask-- I want you to say to Natasha, after she took me to the airport, and watched the guard take my lovely coat off, and she watched me go through, and I said goodbye to her-- I didn't think I'd ever see her again-- did she ever have any problems? Was she in trouble in any way? What happened? Where did she go? Did she go back straight to the school?
Marius: I can ask her. Natalia, [Speaking Russian]...
The narrator, Jake: Unfortunately, we didn't really get the answers to those questions. Marius translated the question, but then began talking about the Soviet Union, and we didn't get an opportunity to revisit it. This is what we were worried about, talking through a translator. It turns out Natasha was getting a bit frustrated herself.
Marius: You are essentially a slave of the state.
Natasha: [Speaking Russian].
Marius: [Speaking Russian]. She's saying she's understanding almost everything I am saying.
Debbie: Oh my God, that's amazing. Oh my God.
Marius: Because he can speak-
Natasha: My translation is easier for her-
Natasha: -a lot, a lot, a lot.
Marius: -because I speak a lot, but not in English. I don't speak…
The narrator, Jake: We really didn't need to worry, it didn't take long for mum and Natasha to revert back into their teenage selves.
[crosstalk]
Jake: No, I was just going to say, it's nice to see that after 48 years, or whatever, and they immediately start talking about ballet. It's like you are teenagers again, like falling straight…
Debbie: We are still teenagers. We are still young girls with our lives ahead of us.
Jake: I know. I just turned around, and you were both doing ballet moves.
Debbie: Yes. We're talking about a particular ballerina that--
The narrator, Jake: It was all a bit overwhelming, and after nearly two hours of non-stop chatting, it was time for a well-earned break. Luckily, we were going to be seeing them for dinner in an hour or so.
Natasha: Thank you.
Jake: Thank you. See you in a few hours. Have you got my bag?
Debbie: See you soon. I can't believe that saying that. It sounds, "I've got you a bag." That sounds so crazy to say that.
Porter: Sorry, thank you.
[crosstalk]
Debbie: I know. [laughs]
Natasha: See you later.
Debbie: See you soon.
Jake: Bye-bye.
Debbie: Which way is it?
Porter: This way.
Debbie: I need to go outside and have a cigarette, darling.
Jake: Yes. I need to get my thing from the room first. Let's just go to the room on the way. It's in here. 85730. How do you feel-- well, we'll talk in a second, but how do you feel after?
Debbie: I feel wonderful seeing her. Did you witness genuine love? It was amazing to see her, just amazing.
The narrator, Jake: We headed out to sample the culinary delights of Finland, and somehow along the way, ended up at a Spanish restaurant. It was pretty early, and we managed to find a table slightly secluded and away from other diners.
Natasha: Me-- you bring scampi's.
Marius: Bring scampi's for Natalia.
Debbie: Same for me.
The narrator, Jake: It was now time for a toast, which are so often made to absent friends, that it felt truly special to make one to long-lost friends finally reunited.
[toast]
Jake: Cheers.
Natasha: For you.
Debbie: For you, Natasha, darling.
Natasha: For you, Debbie. Thank you, for your visit.
Debbie: You don't have to thank me, I'm here to thank you.
[music]
The narrator, Jake: I think it was at this point that it all really hit mum. We'd been talking about the reuniting and the fact that we were soon going to have to leave in abstract terms, but now in the hot and noisy restaurant, on very little sleep, it all became real.
Debbie: It's all just too much. [sighs] I can't really believe it. I feel it's too sad to think that I don't know when I'm going to see her again.
Debbie: I think I'll sit outside and get some fresh air.
Jake: Okay. You go outside then, mum.
Debbie: I'm too hot, and it's making me feel a bit faint.
The narrator, Jake: Natasha went outside to join my mum. I wanted to give them a moment. While I had been let into this story to a certain extent, there were still parts of their experience that had to be between the two of them. I would have to wait to find out what happened outside on the bench that evening.
Debbie: She loves her present, and she gave me a beautiful present.
Jake: You didn't do it already, did you?
Debbie: Yes, because it's a private moment between the two of us.
Jake: Aww.
Debbie: We wanted to be alone and do it together.
Jake: Fair enough. It's an nice present.
Debbie: Huh?
Jake: I said it's a nice present.
Natasha: [laughs]
Debbie: Oh, it's because of the cigarette, yes. She hasn't had--
Jake: You've got Natasha having a cigarette after how long?
Debbie: She hasn't had one for 20 years, and I didn't want to. She asked me, and I've never-- say no to her. She hasn't had one for 20 years.
Jake: So the legacy after getting back in-
Natasha: One time.
Jake: -touch, after 48 years-
Natasha: Only one time.
Jake: -is you make her smoke again?
Debbie: I didn't make her, she asked me for one. Look what Natasha gave me.
Jake: A broach?
Debbie: Yes.
Jake: A ballerina broach.
Debbie: A ballerina.
Jake: What did you give Natasha?
Debbie: I gave Natasha a gold heart-
Natasha: Gold heart.
Debbie: -with love.
Jake: Did you like it, Natasha?
Natasha: Yes.
Debbie: She cried.
The narrator, Jake: With both the physical and emotional exhaustion setting in, it was time to call it a night.
Jake: Good night, Natasha. Goodnight, Marius. Sleep well.
Debbie: You only ever see me when I'm like an old dead person.
Natasha: Good rest.
Marius: Good rest. Have a good rest.
Debbie: See you in the morning.
Jake: How do you feel?
Debbie: Just really zonked. I'd love a cup of tea, but that spoils it.
Jake: But I mean how do you feel?
Debbie: It's so sad that I've found her, and I'm going to say goodbye now. She really cares about me.
The narrator, Jake: This whole time, mum was worried that Natasha didn't care about her and about the experience, in the same way that she did. That maybe it was insignificant, or meaningless to her. While it clearly couldn't match the same impact as it did for my mum, after all, Natasha saved Debbie, not the other way around, that didn't stop Natasha from feeling a genuine friendship and connection, unbroken by time or distance. Now we had a big worry on our hands, mum had to go home again. Even before our trip, when I had my chat with mum, the prospect of leaving was on my mind.
Jake The only negative aspect that I can see from it, is actually when we then have to part ways again after 36 hours or however long we were there, knowing that actually-
Debbie: It is unfortunate that I will never probably see her again. I hadn't actually thought that far in advance. I know, how weird is that?
Jake: No, but that's not determined.
Debbie: No, it's not determined, and who knows? The one thing I've learned about life is, never say never. I heard a good one the other day, your uncle told me this, "If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans."
Jake: Nice.
The narrator, Jake: Just as quickly as we had arrived, it was time to leave. The morning after our dinner, we were packed up and in a taxi with Natasha and Marius to once again, say goodbye at an airport.
Debbie: Last time I was in a taxi with you, you were holding my hand and saying, "Everything's going to be okay." I was being my normal [crying]
Natasha: "Why do you cry, Debbie? Why do you cry?" Yes?
Jake: There's happier circumstances this time.
Debbie: Yes.
Jake: There's no reason to cry now.
Debbie: No. Who knows what the future-- none of us know what the future holds, do we?
Marius: No. None of us.
The narrator, Jake: In that taxi ride to the airport, it really felt like we had stepped into a time capsule. I was back with them in 1974. Debbie, about to get on a plane home with no idea when she would see Natasha again. We had come full circle.
Debbie: [crosstalk] last night about Marianela Núñez. I was very impressed with her Juliet.
The narrator, Jake: Then finally it came, the thing that had been hanging over us for the past 36 hours.
Debbie: Oh, we're here. Oh, that's so quick.
[music]
Natasha: Airport.
Jack: What do you want to do? You want to say goodbye now or?
Debbie: I never want to say goodbye. [laughs] But we have to.
Debbie: Now, you look after yourself.
Natasha: It was a good idea to see you, I think.
Debbie: We see each other again, my friend. My dear friend. You take care. Estranged at the airport again.
Natasha: In the airport again.
Debbie: At the airport again.
Natasha: But this another airport, another time…
Debbie: Another time, another life.
Natasha: Another life.
Debbie: No crying.
Natasha: No crying.
Debbie: Say, one last time, "Don't cry, Debbie."
Natasha: I will write.
Debbie: You write, and I write. Goodbye, dear.
Natasha: Goodbye.
Debbie: I will always love you. Always be great.
Jake: Bye-bye Natasha. Thank you so much.
Natasha: Thank you very much, for you.
Jake: No. Thank you.
Natasha: The visit.
Jake: Thank you.
Natasha: Thank you very much.
Debbie: You look after yourself, special lady.
Jake: Bye-bye. You all right, ma?
Debbie: Yes, I'm fine.
Jake: Go on, give me a hug. You're okay.
Debbie: I don't think I'm ever going to see her again.
The narrator, Jake: After such a short amount of time together, it really did feel Natasha and my mum had only had one moment alone together in the entire trip when they went outside together at dinner the night before. I spoke to her the morning after, just before we left for the airport. After finally getting a good night's sleep, she was the calmest she'd been on the trip.
Jake: How are you feeling?
Debbie: Most of all, I feel sad. I mustn't allow myself to let that show.
Jake: Why do you feel sad?
Debbie: Well, in a way, I wish I hadn't come because seeing her again, it was even more than I thought, really. I thought I'd just feel this sort of affection and gratitude, which I do. Last night after the meal, when we sat alone outside when I didn't feel very well in that hot, stuffy place and I just thought I had to get some fresh air, and we sat on the bench and she stroked my hair. Her English is so much better now. She's saying, "You are special." I gave her the locket. I wanted to do that on our own. That was important to me. She loved it. She cried. Then she gave me that little broach of a little dancer, which was so sweet. She said, "I'm sorry, it's so modest." She actually used the word modest. I said, "Don't be crazy. It's the most precious-- one of the most precious things I've ever been given."
I think we both just felt so happy, but also so sad to know we'd probably never see each other again. I said to her, "We never know what's going to happen in the future, but let's be realistic." She's even sweeter than I remember. During the meal when we were all talking about ballet in the theatre, you know, her incredible knowledge, and I just realised what she'd become since that 19-year-old girl I said goodbye to. She's just become this incredibly learned, respected professor. I just feel heartbroken, but I can't do anything.
Jake: The fact that you're in constant-- in contact with each other and can still communicate and still express kindness and friendship to one another, then really-- yes, okay, it's not the same as hugging someone in person but it's not the same as losing them.
Debbie: Anyway, so it's all just very overwhelming. Part of me, as I said when I woke up only half an hour ago-- this is why somehow I just can't even string a sentence together-- it's like a wound's opened up in a funny sort of way because there's not many people in this world that I love. Who selfishly, more importantly, feel that they love me, and she's one of them. I don't know why. I just feel very sad. [silence] Anyway, darling, I've given myself a headache. I'm probably you. I'm going to go and have a coffee now, try and wake myself up.
The narrator, Jake: One of the peculiar things said about history, is how often it seems to repeat itself. It certainly felt that way once again with my mum and Natasha prepared to part ways at an airport, unsure of when or indeed whether they would ever see each other again. I could tell my mum was conflicted. This entire experience of actually reuniting with Natasha in person was joyous but also laced with sadness. I think any reckoning with your past can be difficult, especially dealing with trauma and pain, long repressed and hidden from view.
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The old saying of a problem shared is a problem halved, may sound trite, but there is a truth to it. The ability to discuss pain with the ones you care most about can be daunting, at least it was for me. Going on this journey with my mum was also cathartic. Helping her find the woman who she truly believes is her guardian angel, someone I was supposed to be named after and who my mum is quick to always remind me, I wouldn't even exist without, has been something I will never forget. To me, and maybe some of you listening, in lots of ways, Natasha still feels like a bit of an enigma. What we know is that an act of kindness from a brave teenager has had a huge impact on my mum's life and forged a bond beyond the barriers of language, geography, or even time.
We know that Natasha is an incredible person, but also a guarded one, and for many a good reason. That's sort of it, right? I have to say, witnessing those in-person moments between them, reunited after half a century and half a world away from when it all began, I saw that their experiences and friendship both mean as much to themselves as they do to each other. The other details are sort of peripheral in the grand scheme of this one real moment.
Sandra: Has this experience changed your relationship with your mother?
Jake: Yes and no. I mean, I think I always had a pretty close relationship with my mum anyway, and we kind of,, mainly on her part, like to blur the lines between what you normally would talk to your children about. But I think I feel, hopefully, it's maybe more of a willingness to be open about maybe certain things that we weren't before. Because, you know, this was a big traumatic thing that hung over her for 50 years and having that fog cleared, I think shows that actually don't let anything hold power over you, and just be willing to talk about whatever, because you never know what the unintended consequences of those conversations may lead to, which is essentially what happened.
She told me something one day, and not too far in the distant future we managed to find Natasha. I think probably, maybe there's a willingness on both sides to be more honest and open with each other.
Debbie: Obviously, what you've done from here, just the shift, just even if there was no podcast involved or anything, Finding Natasha was the most wonderful gift you could have given me.
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The narrator, Jake: Finding Natasha is a Message Heard production. It's hosted by me, Jake Warren, produced by Bea Duncan, and executive produced by Sandra Ferrari, with production support from Talia Augustidis.