Episode 5
Don’t Cry, Debbie
Debbie hears the other side of the story, and Jake has one more surprise for her.
Transcripts
FINDING NATASHA, EPISODE 5
Jake Warren As you know by now, my mum's quiet hope of ever meeting Natasha again slipped into daydreaming territory over the years. She'd imagined what it would be like, but ultimately resigned herself to the fact that it might never happen.
Debbie Gayle And then, of course, my son became an investigative journalist. And he said to me one day, “Mum, you know, we can find her.” And I said, “Don't be ridiculous. All I've got is her name.” Well, it was equivalent to sort of Jane Smith in Russia. And I just thought it was utterly impossible and it never occurred to me that she would still be in Leningrad.
Jake Warren From Message Heard, this is the final episode of Finding Natasha. I’m Jake Warren.
To my mum. Natasha was a saviour. She'd always talked about her as if she was some sort of historical icon or a mythical figure rather than a real woman. And I understand why a bit better now. The whole Russia experience was such a whirlwind for mum. It became an almost fantastical tale for her as she replayed the story in her head over and over again. So, after I told mum that we found Natasha, they first exchanged a few e-mails. And then, it was finally time for them to talk. Under normal circumstances, I would have flown out to St. Petersburg with mum. But because of the pandemic, we just did it over Zoom, like literally everything else.
Debbie Gayle Shock and horror. I’m just looking myself... Jake Warren Anyway, understandably, mum was quite normal.
Debbie Gayle ... thinking, Who on earth is that woman with a huge nose that looks like a potato? Well, trust me. When you get to my age, you just... Well, you’re sort of – you’re sort of all right until you're fifty.
Jake Warren [CROSSTALK], you said?
Debbie Gayle [CROSSTALK] horribly.
Jake Warren Hi, Natasha.
Natasha Hello. Oh. Oh, my God. Debbie. Debbie, I thought you... Debbie Gayle Oh, my God.
Jake Warren Fittingly, because it was my gateway into this whole story, the call began with my mum thrusting at the camera that one picture of Natasha she's had since the seventies.
Debbie Gayle I have a picture. I've had it all these years of you. You look just the same.
Jake Warren The photo is one of my mum's most precious possessions. Natasha gave it to her just as they were about to leave her home for the airport.
Debbie Gayle She had two little photographs. And one, I put in a little silver frame. And I have had that by my bed with a – a baby photo of Jake just forever, you know. Forty-six years. When I saw her on the Zoom call, I – I’d brought this little photo out of my handbag and I thrusted it at the screen. I said, “I've had this picture of you all this – this time.” And she thought it was very funny. And she said, “Is that me? I can't believe it's me.” Obviously.
Natasha [INAUDIBLE]. This is me?
Debbie Gayle That is you. And you still look the same. You're wearing
glasses, though. I can't believe I'm seeing you. It's so wonderful. Natasha Debbie, I'm very glad to see you. You cannot imagine.
Debbie Gayle Oh, Natasha. I never wanted to get to the end of my life and not know that you were all right and that you didn't need me. And it's been wonderful to know that you have had this fantastic life and you stayed in the Mariinsky and you've become this great teacher, professor. I’m so proud.
Jake Warren So, Natasha does speak and understand some English. But Olga was on the call with us and translated most of it just to make sure that nothing got misinterpreted in between my mum's crying and Natasha's stoicism.
Olga Kuzmenkova So, uh, I think I'll – I'll just translate. Jake Warren Yeah.
Natasha [SPEAKS IN RUSSIAN]
Olga Kuzmenkova [SPEAKS IN RUSSIAN]
Natasha [SPEAKS IN RUSSIAN]
Olga Kuzmenkova So, Natalia just says that, um, she still can’t believe her eyes that she sees that same Debbie in front of her.
Debbie Gayle It's the same Debbie that's crying, that was always crying.
Jake Warren I could tell that my mum was nervous, but it was more difficult to read Natasha. At first, she seemed a bit distant. She had that stereotypical, unflappable Russian-ness about her. But then I started noticing that she had this look in her eyes. It was giving away something that her face wasn't. She was really happy to see mum. And it was an amazing moment. But it also felt a little strange. I don't know. Maybe there was part of me that didn't think Natasha was real, that she was just a story that my mum had told. But there they were, actually talking to each other.
Debbie Gayle I'm so grateful for her friendship and her care. Because I don't think Natasha realises how frightened I was, particularly when I got so ill and I was in a hospital. I don't know how she found me, but she did. One of the things Natasha always used to say to me was: “Don't cry. Don't cry.”
Natasha I remember. I remember it. It is in this moment I remember. Debbie Gayle Yeah. She’d say, “Don’t cry.”
Natasha Don't cry now. Don’t cry? Why do cry, Debbie? Why do you cry?
Debbie Gayle Happy tears.
Natasha [SPEAKS IN RUSSIAN]
Jake Warren After the initial shock of suddenly being in each other's lives again subsided, they started recounting the story of 1974. For the first time, I got to hear the other side of my mum's memories.
Natasha [SPEAKS IN RUSSIAN]
Olga Kuzmenkova So, Natalia says that, uh, when she was young, she learned English, and there was a small rhyme going as, uh, “Don't cry. Don't cry.” And that's how she learns this phrase. And, uh, that's why, when – when you were in the academy, this phrase kind of came back to her and that's why she kept repeating it to you.
Jake Warren But as they talked, little clashes of how they remembered things were popping up. Nothing about the facts of what happened. It was more the way that they thought about their respective roles in the story.
Debbie Gayle I felt like I was drowning, and she was like this wonderful log that I clung to.
Natasha [SPEAKS IN RUSSIAN]
Olga Kuzmenkova It was clear that you needed some help, and that you're obviously deserved to be helped, because you were a little and a lost young girl in a foreign country. So, obviously you needed a hand. It was just natural to help you.
Jake Warren I guess what to my mum felt like an act of heroism, in Natasha's view, seemed like the most natural thing to do. Someone needed her help, and so she helped. But still, it seemed that mum was desperate for Natasha to understand the power of what she did.
Debbie Gayle Well, she's was my guardian angel. And, of course, Natasha could not have realised at the time how ill I was when she got me out of that hospital. When she got me out and when I got back to England, they said I had hepatitis and I had malnutrition. And I remember when I saw her face in that glass window, it was the happiest moment of my life.
Natasha [SPEAKS IN RUSSIAN]
Olga Kuzmenkova It’s – it’s surprising that you were malnutritioned. It's confusing. Like, were – were there any problems with foods in the boarding school?
Debbie Gayle Yes. Big problems. Because until Natasha found me, I didn't even know where to go to eat in the canteen.
Jake Warren Mum went on to tell Natasha the whole story of how she got ill, how the food at the academy made the situation so much worse, how she lost appetite after getting sick, and how all of that landed her in the isolation ward. I'm not sure if, back then, Natasha even knew exactly what mum was going through or if these memories just weren't significant enough for her to remember. Either way, it almost seemed as if Natasha was hearing about what happened to mum for the first time.
Olga Kuzmenkova It’s terrible. Natasha That is terrible.
Olga Kuzmenkova Terrible, really. Natasha [SPEAKS IN RUSSIAN]
Olga Kuzmenkova That story of your illness, that sounds really terrible. But she thinks it's kind of time to get over this and try to focus on the best bits of that experience. She was wondering if you had any kind of positive memories from that experience. Maybe something in relation to ballet.
Jake Warren Something like this happened a few times during the call. Natasha challenging mum's perspective a little bit, nudging her to try looking at things more positively. They so comfortably slipped back into their old respective roles.
Debbie Gayle Well, it's – it's very difficult for me, because I should never have gone. I wasn't good enough. And I realised, when I arrived, that my dream of being in the Kirov school, I was not good enough. It was a huge reality check. And I went there in a dream, and it was a big shock to realise I wasn't the dancer that I wanted to be. And, of course, the conditions and the loneliness. But, of course, I realised how magical that school is. It has produced the best dancers in the world, and it was an honor to be there. And I saw some wonderful dancers. But it was mixed. It... I didn't deserve. I shouldn't have been there. I didn't have the talent and the ability. So, it was very, very difficult. And I am ashamed and I felt a failure most of my life, because of that. That I had that opportunity and I couldn't cope. I couldn't keep up in the class. I very quickly got weak. And I am ashamed to say that, yeah, I was... Natasha was the first person who came along and showed me kindness and gave me apples and said, “Don't cry.” And she was my bright sunshine in that experience.
Jake Warren And the same thing happened again when it came to mum's dance training. Natasha said she didn't think mum had failed. Instead, she said that, intentionally or otherwise, she was simply placed in the wrong grade. You see, at the academy, they had eight grades and teachers drilled technique into the students relentlessly since they were little kids, preparing them for the grueling final years.
Natasha [SPEAKS IN RUSSIAN]
Olga Kuzmenkova Probably what's happened was that, upon arrival, they placed you in the sixth year based on your age and not based on your technical skills and your technical knowledge. That's probably why you felt that the experience was so difficult.
Jake Warren Mum had dwelled on the darkness of her experience for a long time. And so, hearing these things from Natasha freed her up in a way. Over the almost two-hour long call, I noticed a subtle, almost imperceptible shift in
her. She, all of a sudden, became eager to talk about the happy stuff. That's coming up after a short break.
[MIDROLL]
Debbie Gayle One of my strong memories is we both were in love with Mikhail Baryshnikov, who had just defected to the West, unfortunately. That broke Natasha's heart, ‘cause she was in love with him. And I had a big crush on him, too. And he had gone literally two months before I arrived. And we used to talk and laugh about Baryshnikov. But we were not allowed to talk about it too loud, because his name was... You know, the Soviet Union. You don't mention...
Natasha Mmhmm.
Debbie Gayle ...anybody who's affected then. But we both were in
love with Baryshnikov.
Natasha [SPEAKS IN RUSSIAN]
Olga Kuzmenkova You see... Uh, so, Natalia says, you see, that that is happiness.
Debbie Gayle Yeah.
Olga Kuzmenkova And these are kind of happy moments.
Debbie Gayle Yeah, yeah. Of course. Of course. And I have a memory of Natasha taking me down to the basement where she had a friend called Jenya.
Natasha Yes, yes.
Debbie Gayle And Jenya would make us coffee, strong like Turkish coffee. And it was so delicious. And this strange pot and the three of us, it was big secret. I mean, you know, I don’t... I think we weren't supposed to be there, drinking this coffee that Jenya somehow got a hold of. Does she remember Jenya?
Natasha [SPEAKS IN RUSSIAN]
Natasha As a matter of fact, Natalia talked to Jenya just two days ago. Debbie Gayle Oh, my.
Natasha And she told her that Debbie found herself and that they became back. And that she asked Jenya if she still remembers Debbie. And Jenya said, “Of course, I do.”
Debbie Gayle [INAUDIBLE]
Natasha [SPEAKS IN RUSSIAN]
Jake Warren As I was sitting there, listening to them catching up through the medium of Olga, the mundane newness of this moment dawned on me. For some reason, I expected the conversation to be dramatic, emotional, and full of decades-old revelations. And perhaps it would have been if it had not been happening over Zoom. But at some point, it hit me how incredible this not so exciting nature of the call was in and of itself, because it sounded like two old friends catching up. After fifty years, they were just catching up. And it was also clear how much of a relief it was for mum to finally go over these memories with someone who was there, too, who could ease the burden of failure that she puts on herself ever since.
But like in all conversations between good friends, once you start talking about your celebrity crushes, it's very difficult to stop. Even if your son and two other people are sitting right there on the call with you. And so, we learned that one of Natasha's friends called [NAME] is a prominent Russian ballet critic who happens to be a close friend of Baryshnikov.
Natasha [SPEAKS IN RUSSIAN]
Olga Kuzmenkova Three years ago, [NAME] went to Paris where Baryshnikov performed. And, uh, Natalia happened to be there as well. And, uh, after the performance, [NAME] introduced Natalia and, uh, Baryshnikov. And...
Debbie Gayle Oh, God.
Natasha Yes. So, Natalia managed to see Baryshnikov in really close proximity, and they even kind of handshaked. And, uh, yeah. They kind of got to know each other.
Debbie Gayle Amazing. I’m so glad. You saw your loved one, at last, close up. Yeah.
Jake Warren I don't know if it was their mutual pining for Baryshnikov or something else. But after re-bonding over him, the energy of the conversation changed somewhat. Their perspectives that had been completely separate from each other up until now started to entwine.
Debbie Gayle I have so many special memories of you, of your kindness. And I understand that it's very different for her. Because for me, everything was so intensified, you know. I'm sure, to Natasha, I was probably just a bit of an annoying English girl that needed some help. But for me, it was huge. And I was so grateful. I do not know what
I would have done if I hadn't have met Natasha. I would have been in trouble. I wanted to find her for years and years, but I didn't want to cause her any trouble.
Natasha [SPEAKS IN RUSSIAN]
Olga Kuzmenkova So, the thing is, first of all, Natalia also wanted to find you, but it was not easy. And soon after you left Soviet Union, Natalia left the academy and she joined the theater. So, she became a dancer herself.
Jake Warren Natasha actually danced for five years. And during that whole time, she also studied ballet criticism by correspondence. Ever since graduating that course, she's been teaching at different ballet schools, eventually returning to Leningrad.
Natasha [SPEAKS IN RUSSIAN]
Olga Kuzmenkova When she was read your letter, especially that part when you said that you have been thinking about her all this time and that you – you’ve been willing to find her in the end, that it was the moment when she realised that, actually, yes, she has a happy life and that it is probably because you prayed for her.
Debbie Gayle It's because she deserves one. Natasha [SPEAKS IN RUSSIAN]
Debbie Gayle She was my angel, and angels deserve good things. And I'm so happy. I'm so happy that she has been successful and then she has a beautiful daughter and a little grandchild. Those are the most important things. There’s nothing more precious. She deserves those things.
Jake Warren As the call was wrapping up, there was one more full circle moment for mum.
Natasha [SPEAKS IN RUSSIAN]
Olga Kuzmenkova This is probably the room where you stayed. Debbie Gayle Oh, my gosh. Oh.
Olga Kuzmenkova It looks quite different these days, but... Debbie Gayle Yes.
Olga Kuzmenkova ... it is – it is – it is the same room.
Natasha [SPEAKS IN RUSSIAN]
Olga Kuzmenkova These are the paintings or the collection of Italian
paintings.
Debbie Gayle She didn't have those in 1974.
Jake Warren Seeing Natasha, sitting in the very room was she herself was nursed back to health, was, for mum, like looking through a portal on a computer screen, into her memories. They were the same, but also completely different from how she remembered them. Although in that moment, mum was also very focused on when she could see Natasha in person again.
Natasha [SPEAKS IN RUSSIAN]
Olga Kuzmenkova After she was allowed to travel abroad, she
traveled to Italy. And Italy is her favourite country.
Debbie Gayle It’s my favourite country, too. My Italy. The pasta, the art, language, the clothes, everything. I love Italy.
Natasha [SPEAKS IN RUSSIAN] Olga Kuzmenkova And also wine. Debbie Gayle Oh, yeah.
Natasha And red wine. Red wine.
Debbie Gayle [CROSSTALK]. And the cakes. The things that make life worth living, of course. Tell Natasha maybe we need to meet in Italy soon.
Olga Kuzmenkova [SPEAKS IN RUSSIAN]
Jake Warren None of us know when that will actually be possible, though. So, in the meantime, the two of them have been staying in touch online.
Debbie Gayle We, of course, now, we e-mail regularly and we’ve sent each other hundreds of photos. And as soon as this wretched pandemic’s over, I'm going to go and see her and meet her lovely daughter and granddaughter.
Jake Warren The big reunion happened months ago now. And ever since, it's been in my head. The whole point of this was to see a clearer picture of my mum as a person. Because, until now, as most of us with our parents, I only understood as much as she had given away herself. And the reality is that
Natasha was the only other person who was there alongside mum during the most formative experience of her life. The rest of us had no other choice, but to accept mum's framing of that experience.
And for years afterwards, she didn't speak to anyone about it. A mixture of isolation, disappointment, and craving for connection whirled around in her head. That way, her self-enforced narrative of failure was allowed to fester and eat away at her. But at least now, I recognise that. And I don't take that narrative as an absolute truth, because there's so much more to mum than that.
And back when I'd spoken to Uncle Nic, I asked him why he thought mum understood herself through that negative prism.
Uncle Nic I think she's doing what we all do, telling ourselves the story of our life as we need to hear it at the moment. I'm suggesting that there's a very important reason why. She's doing it, because she needs to. And it doesn't mean to say that she'll always tell this particular story in this particular way. She may come to see it differently. But at this particular stage, extended stage of her life, she needs to see it in this way.
This is the kind of psychic stuff you have to go through, uh, and come through the other end by yourself somehow. And she may come to see it all rather differently. But at the moment, this is how she views her life. And there's a reason why she needs to tell herself this particular story.
Jake Warren Uncle Nic, I think, got straight to the heart of it. There's one thing about which I disagree with him, though. To me, it seems that the process of mum coming to see it all differently has already begun all the way back when she told someone her story the first time. Whether consciously or not, she was knocking over the first in a line of dominos, which is still falling now, as you're listening to this. And maybe that's why she was okay with me trying to find Natasha and making this podcast about it all. Okay with you hearing it. It has given her the opportunity to have her story told again. A little differently this time.
Sandra Ferrari Absolutely.
Jake Warren All right. You got to sit down again, Ma. Debbie Gayle Your hair looks greasy, darling.
Jake Warren Uh, thank you. Luckily, it's a podcast. So, one of the things which was quite essential to this story, which I think is particularly nice, especially how you and Natasha bonded, was
obviously, you know, great love of ballet, but also, you know, sort of teenage crush of Mikhail Baryshnikov.
Debbie Gayle Oh. Yeah. We both were madly in love with Baryshnikov. Yeah.
Jake Warren You know? And he’s – he's a superstar, right? Even in the West, he's become a famous actor. And...
Debbie Gayle Well, he was a great dancer. I mean, he – he was director of American Ballet Theater for a while. And... Yeah. I mean, he dabbled in acting. He was in Sex in the City and...
Jake Warren Yeah. I have not watched that. But apparently, that's a big deal. But he's also a very nice man.
Debbie Gayle Yeah, yeah. I've heard that.
Jake Warren But do you know why?
Debbie Gayle No.
Jake Warren ‘Cause I managed to get in touch with him. Debbie Gayle You’re joking.
Jake Warren No. I managed to get in touch with Baryshnikov. And he sent me a handwritten letter, which is addressed to you in beautiful, handwritten English.
Debbie Gayle Oh, my God. You’re joking. Jake Warren So, I'll read it to you. Debbie Gayle Oh, my God.
Jake Warren And then, you can keep it. He said, To Deborah, in his handwriting. He's got sort of a Shakespearian, beautiful handwriting. And it was a real... He's not an easy man to track down.
Debbie Gayle Oh, my God.
Jake Warren It was a convoluted way of getting in touch with him. But people were very generous and they put me in touch. And so, he wrote this. I’ll read it to you first. And then and – and then...
Debbie Gayle Yeah. You read it. Oh, my God. I just... My eyes are full of tears. I can’t see.
Jake Warren So, it says, Dear Deborah, a friend tells me that you and your friend Natasha shared a common idol back in 1974 at the Vaganova Academy. I'm certainly no idol, but I'm honored that you and Natasha found inspiration in my career. It sounds like you and she enjoyed deep and true friendship. And I believe that to be one of the truest gifts there is, especially when tested by time and geography. I wish you and your family all good things in life. Stay well. Stay safe. All the best, Mikhail Baryshnikov.
Debbie Gayle Oh, how sweet. What a lovely, lovely man. Can I write to him? Can I meet him?
Jake Warren What? So, you could tell him that you’re still in love with him? level
Debbie Gayle So, I can tell him I’m still in love with him and I’m single. Jake Warren Yeah.
Debbie Gayle Oh, my God. That’s so amazing, darling. Oh, God. I wanna kiss you. Oh, it’s so [INAUDIBLE]. He’s still devastatingly handsome. He must be [INAUDIBLE]. Unbelievable. And I don't need any birthday or Christmas presents for the rest of my whole life.
Jake Warren Why do you think I’ve done this?
Debbie Gayle Because finding Natasha and then the letter from Baryshnikov and doing all this is... Well, I already knew you’re the best son in the world, but you've definitely proven it. And also, I'd just like to quickly add, as I've been droning on about my failure and underachievement, and I’d just like to say, um, if I had the choice between being that super great, wonderful dancer I wanted to be or having had you, being your mum, do you know?
Jake Warren It would have been the dancer?
Debbie Gayle You can say no. It’d be having you. You're the best thing
I've ever done. You're my great achievement.
Jake Warren Thanks, mum.
Debbie Gayle Thank you, darling. And thank you, Sandra.
Sandra Ferrari You’re welcome. This is like watching your life happen.
Jake Warren Finding Natasha is a Message Heard production. It’s hosted by me, Jake Warren, and produced by Sandra Ferrari and Jake Otajovič. Edited by Jake Otajovič and executive produced by Sandra Ferrari. A huge thank you
goes to Olga, whose translating and detective work meant that mum and Natasha could finally be reunited. The theme music is by Matt Huxley. Thank you so much for listening to the entire story. If you enjoyed it, share the podcast with friends and family who you think would enjoy it, too. And follow Message Heard on social media for news and updates about other shows we’ve got coming out in the future.
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