Episode 4
Home Sweet Home
Debbie returns home and renounces her past. Fifty years later, Jake prepares his mum to confront it.
Transcripts
FINDING NATASHA, EPISODE 4
Debbie Gayle Hi.
Jake Warren Hi. There we go.
Debbie Gayle Can you see me?
Jake Warren No, no. I can’t see you.
Debbie Gayle Good. ‘Cause I look all awful.
Jake Warren Don’t worry. We're not – we're not doing a video call. We’re just doing it to your mobile. Um, what are you doing right now?
Debbie Gayle Sitting, smoking. Feeling stressed. Wondering what the point of me not throwing myself out the window is.
Jake Warren You live on the ground floor, anyways. So, it doesn't matter. Um, anyway, I've got, um, I've got some good news.
Debbie Gayle Yeah?
Jake Warren Um...
Debbie Gayle I could do with some.
Jake Warren Well, that's good, ‘cause I've got some. So... Debbie Gayle ‘Cause my life is absolute shit.
Jake Warren Mum, shut up. Stop being weird. Um, so, I have... Well, not just me, you know. Me and – and my team. Uh, when lockdown started, um, you know, we were looking into... I’ll just come out and say it. We've found Natasha and we’ve made contact with her, uh, and spoken to her.
Debbie Gayle Well, I couldn't believe it.
Jake Warren Yeah.
Debbie Gayle Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Are you sure it’s her?
Jake Warren Yeah. We’ve spoken to her. And she said that, of course, she remembers you and, you know...
Debbie Gayle She saved my life.
Jake Warren Yeah. Well, we found her. And she's fine and well.
Debbie Gayle Oh, I’m so glad. Did you see her? Jake Warren I've seen pictures of her.
Debbie Gayle What does she look like?
Jake Warren She looks a lot like the, um, the one sort of grainy picture you have of her as a teenager. I mean, she's well. She's, uh... Lives in St. Petersburg. She still technically owns that same flat that you have the address for.
Debbie Gayle Well, did she marry and have children?
Jake Warren I don't know. I don't know. I haven't spoken to her yet.
Um, my colleague...
Debbie Gayle Oh, my God. Oh, I can't believe it. I mean, I can’t believe it. I loved that girl. She – she came to the hospital when I was just dumped there and put in isolation room. She took all those risks. And she – she saw me through the window and she put a finger to her mouth. Shush. She came and shoved open the door and she got me out. Oh, my God. I hope she's had a happy life.
Jake Warren Well, you'll find out soon.
Debbie Gayle When you talk to her, I want you to tell her that if it
wasn't for her, you would not be here.
Jake Warren I will tell her that. Yeah. I’ll tell her.
Debbie Gayle It’s the truth. I was so ill. Their idea of treating me in a Soviet hospital in 1974 was to starve me.
Jake Warren Well, look, mama. So, I’m gonna speak to her and I'll connect you to her really soon. But yeah. I just wanted to tell you that, obviously, we found her and she's alive and she's well. She still works in ballet. She actually is a professor at the Vaganova.
Debbie Gayle No.
Jake Warren Yeah, yeah.
Debbie Gayle Oh, my gosh. Oh, my God. Is she... Wait, she became a ballet teacher?
Jake Warren I think she – she...
Debbie Gayle She was a – just a secretary. She was working on a scholarship. She had a passion for ballet.
Jake Warren She’s a professional in some capacity. But like I said, look, I – I haven't spoken to her yet. Only my colleague Olga has. But...
Debbie Gayle So, I would come into your office to do, like, a Zoom call or something, wouldn’t I? Is that how we do it? ‘Cause I can’t sort of do it from my end. It's bloody impossible. And this stupid bloody iPad, I feel like throwing it on the...
Jake Warren I'm not sure it's all the iPad’s fault. But yes. That would be very tricky.
Debbie Gayle Well, of course, it's the bloody iPad’s fault. How can it not be the iPad’s fault?
Jake Warren Well, hey, mum...
Debbie Gayle Well, I mean, you’re the cleverest boy in the world, and that's given me a real boost, because I honestly was sitting here thinking I was going to throw myself out the window. But now, I think... Actually, I really want to see the Natasha. Jeez. Because it was so such a horrific memory, I just blanked it for decades. I wanted to just make sure she's all right and if she needs anything, you know, then I can... It’s my opportunities for prayer. But it... So, [INAUDIBLE] after what you say, that she probably doesn't need anything. It sounds like maybe she's made a good life. I really hope that she’s okay. Anyway, that's amazing, darling. What can I say? If you wanna make a podcast, [INAUDIBLE], darling. If any... If you think anyone would be interested in my stupid, poor life. But the – the point is I didn't go on and become a successful ballerina, did I? Sorry. [INAUDIBLE].
Jake Warren No, no. And look, this is – this is a big emotional thing. And I think...
Debbie Gayle I didn’t even know where the cafeteria was or that awful food was. And I wandered around.
Jake Warren Well, look.
Debbie Gayle She’s the kindest, sweetest human being I ever met. And she did take some real risks that people today can’t possibly understand, because they don’t understand the world it was [INAUDIBLE]. And all the other girls, they’d all have nothing to do with me. Anyways, sorry. I'm just so overwhelmed.
Jake Warren Don't worry about it, ma. I'll – I'll ring you and speak to you in a bit. Okay? Just, you know, let it digest for a little bit. Okay?
Debbie Gayle Yeah.
Jake Warren From Message Heard...
Debbie Gayle All right, darling. Bye. Jake Warren This is Finding Natasha.
Jake Warren I love you, mum. Bye. Jake Warren I’m Jake Warren.
So, after Natasha came to get my mum out of the hospital, they walked out through the backdoor and onto a snowy field. They got very lucky that no one saw them.
Debbie Gayle She snuck me out. A huge risk to herself. And we walked across the snowy field with me crying as usual and her gambling in Russian, obviously telling me to be brave and to stop it. And I did understand some words. She said she was taking me home to her mama, which she did indeed. And we had to wait by a bus stop. And when the bus arrived, the doors opened. And it was literally, like, sardines in a tin. And I was incredibly weak and could barely stand. And I remember her looking extremely worried and saying, “We have got no choice.” And she shoved me into this bus and held me up. Obviously, no seats. And we were on that bus—I don't know how long —until we arrived where her elderly parents’ flat was in one of these huge Soviet blocks.
Jake Warren And there, waiting for them, was Natasha's mother.
Debbie Gayle So sweet. She must have been scared, really, for Natasha. It’s a bit of risk turning up at that time with a Western girl in half [INAUDIBLE]. And she put me to bed and her mother made me some soup, and I felt warm and I felt safe.
Jake Warren They took her in. Natasha's mother cooked for mum, and she even slept in Natasha's own bed.
Debbie Gayle I used to say to her, “You'll get in trouble. You'll get in trouble.” But, you know, with this selfishness of a scared, needy person. I – I said it, but I just was... I’m just so grateful. And she had no intention of abandoning me.
Jake Warren This was a regime where, according to the officials who were preparing mum before the trip, people could be in danger just for having Western currency on them. And so, Natasha’s family knew they were taking a huge risk. They were showing mum more care than the British government,
who sent her to Russia, ever did. But at the end of the day, the British were the only ones who could get a home safely.
Debbie Gayle And Natasha said to me, “I've got to go.” And I didn't want her to go. She promised me she'd come back. And Natasha went to the British Consulate in Leningrad and she said to them, “You need to know the English girl is very sick.”
Jake Warren A little while later, Natasha came back.
Debbie Gayle And she said to me, “They know. They're arranging for you to go home. You can go to an English hospital and you'll get well.” And, uh, she was the instrument of it all. The British Consulate never visited me. They never contacted me. But they obviously arranged my flights. And Natasha had access in the office at the school. She got my passport.
Jake Warren Just like that, this was all about to end. Yes, she was dangerously ill and terrified, relieved that she'd be able to go to a hospital back home. But leaving also meant that her big Russian ballet dream was about to slip away along with the one person who she felt any closeness to back then.
Debbie Gayle And she got a taxi to her mother's flat. And she helped me get dressed. I had nothing. No bag. But she had got my sheepskin coat from the dormitory. I’d had a little space where I had a few things that were hung up. One was the very expensive sheepskin coat that my dad had bought me. She brought that and whatever else she could find and, obviously, my passport. She had the tickets and she took me in the taxi to the airport. And, uh, we walked into the airport. And I remember the guards, literally, as we were going through passport control, they tapped me on the shoulder and said something to me in Russian. And Natasha said to me, “You have to take a coat off. They want the coat. Let them have it.” So, I mean, I couldn't have cared less. I was just so desperate to get out. And I took the coat off. I handed it to one of the guards. They looked me over to see if there's anything else worth taking, that I had a watch or anything, which I didn't. And then, I remember looking at her, and she said to me, “No. You go through” and “I can't go any further.” And I had nothing to give her. All I had was these little gold earrings in my ears.
Jake Warren They were simple gold earrings.
Debbie Gayle So, I quickly took them out of my ears and I just tell her, “I have nothing else to give you” and “I owe you everything and I'll never, never forget
what you've done.” And we hugged each other. And I did think then, God, I hope she doesn't get into terrible trouble.”
Jake Warren This moment was the last time that my mum had ever seen Natasha. There were no direct flights from Leningrad to London back then. And so, she had to fly through Stockholm. And when she finally touched down in London, despite my grandparents’ ugly divorce, they both came to pick her up at the airport.
Debbie Gayle I remember my mother bursting into tears when she saw me.
Jake Warren They were completely in the dark about what it had been like for her in Russia other than a few letters mum sent to my grandmother, to which, by the way, she never got a reply. And so, they had no idea just how sick mum really was. All three of them only realised once she saw a doctor back home.
Debbie Gayle I was in Guy's Hospital. I had to be treated. I had hepatitis. And I was... Also, they said to my parents, I was suffering from malnutrition. Hardly surprising. The doctor said to my mother when I was in Guy’s, “She's very sick. And if she had stayed in that Soviet hospital with no nutrition and no medical intervention, she...” I could have died. I mean, he basically said to my mother, thank God, I got out when I did, ‘cause it would have been a very bad scenario.
Jake Warren Once the doctors diagnosed her with hepatitis, she was able to start getting treatment. It was going to take months before she'd be strong enough to dance again. But getting back to ballet wasn't at the top of their mind anymore. That's coming up after a short break.
[MIDROLL]
Debbie Gayle The overwhelming feeling I had at that time, apart for feeling ill, was one of failure, really. Absolute, utter failure, you know. Because I'd sort of gone off in this golden blaze of this great dream. And, of course, I came back this sick, scared, very, very unhappy girl who realised that I certainly was never gonna be one of those great Russian dancers. My dream was in tatters. I felt humiliated in a way. I put everything into this dream. Of course, looking back, it's oh, so stupid. And the worst thing, I think, was the fact, you know, I didn't have the backup when I got back. ‘Cause, obviously, my parents were going through this divorce. My father had left home and, in fact, he was now living with someone else and about to become father again. And my mother was very unhappy and very stressed. She begged with her nurse.
Jake Warren Mum returned to a home that was just as dysfunctional as the one she'd left. Her parents treated her as they always had. What she'd gone through didn't seem to make much of a difference to them.
Debbie Gayle I just remember being, when I finally got home, very isolated and very lonely. And the only way I could deal with it was by blocking it out.
Jake Warren And these few months, I think, was so important for what came next. It seems that this is when mum internalised that feeling of being a failure and the shame that came with it.
Debbie Gayle And, uh, yeah. Hepatitis is a horrible thing, really. You have all sorts of horrible side effects. Depression is one of them, which didn't help on top of feeling the world's biggest failure, um, my parents’ dreadful divorce and everything else. And that’s... So, I was a pretty miserable, mixed up young girl.
Jake Warren But once she managed to get better physically, she thought that maybe she could try going back to ballet. That was how she'd always coped before.
Debbie Gayle And I didn't really start dancing again for about six months. I lost so much muscle. I was just incredibly weak. Incredibly weak. I went back to class, to Anna Northcote, my teacher, who was absolutely... I remember her face when she first saw me in the classroom, one of absolute shock at how weak I was and I couldn't do anything. And I think she, uh, she was pretty upset and shocked. I think what happened was it's like in a love relationship, you sort of know that it's over or, you know, that the dreams you had for this person or this relationship—well, in my case this career—are over, because... And this, you know, this is a bad thing, really. It's such a sign of arrogance, you know.
I always loathed mediocrity and I never want... I always thought, you know, if I can't be really good, I don't wanna do it. I – I just... I think the reality check of me seeing these wonderful dancers the same age as me, something died in me. Something just died in me. And ballet is not the sort of thing you can do half-heartedly. Particularly physically, you’re under par, you know. And I fought to get back my strength. And I never really did. And I think, mentally, I had so many issues, which weren't dealt with. You know, I didn't really have anybody to talk to. And I buried everything. So, I was such a mess, because it was so surreal. I thought nobody would really understand or even believe me if I started to say some of the things that I’d lived through or witnessed or... It just
was easier to just not talk about it, really. And, also, every time I did sort of think about it or mention it, I just, as I say, I just felt this feeling of absolutely retched failure.
Jake Warren I feel like it makes so much sense that this is how my mum dealt with what happened in Russia. It's pretty much exactly how her father coped with his past. But there is a small difference. And it's the thing that makes me most sad about all this. Rather than setting her sights on the future, she got stuck in this narrative of her life that started all the way back when she returned from Russia, one all about her not being good enough and about being a disappointment to anyone who ever saw any potential in her.
And, eventually, ballet became a symbol of this story to her. So, it became easier to let it go.
Debbie Gayle I mean, I did go on and dance for a few years, but my heart was not in it. And years later, when I was, you know... I married and had a different life and blah, blah. I never wanted to go to the ballet. I never wanted to listen to music. And I just sort of... As I say, it's like a relationship. You never want to see that person again. You don't want to be reminded of broken dreams. But with the expanse of time, that went. And I now love, love to go to the ballet. I love to watch the great dancers and the young people today. The young dancers today are incredible.
Jake Warren For years, mum remained silent about her trauma. But then, she got older. She built a family of her own and, slowly, she started feeling safe to open up. It was when I was born, in 1990, that she shared parts of the story with her brother. I asked him how he felt when she finally told him.
Uncle Nic The immediate questions that certainly popped into my mind is: Why am I only finding this out now? Why did mum ever speak to me about this even if, Debbie, for understandable reasons, didn't want to? Uh, why didn't dad ever mention it? It was clearly a seminal moment in a sadly seminal moment in her life. The fact that she nearly died of hepatitis, the fact that she came back absolutely skeletal by all accounts, this was significant stuff. Nobody told me. She didn't tell me. My parents didn't tell me.
Then, the corollary of this of, course, is: Does this reflect on me? I remember thinking, Is this some failure in my personality such that they think, “Well, why bother to tell Nicki, ‘cause he wouldn't be interested anyway?”
Jake Warren Over the last few decades, mum's story took on a life of its own and our family. None of us knew all the details. And Natasha was just a
mysterious, distant figure. We had no clue why she meant so much to mum. And I wasn't the only one who tried tracking her down. Because he felt guilty that his sister didn't feel like she could trust him with her pain, Uncle Nic wanted to help ease it.
Uncle Nic Perhaps what spurred me on to think, Right. I must find this girl if I possibly can. Where do I begin? Shall I write to the Russian Embassy and say, “Please help me?”
Jake Warren But back then, before the days of the internet, it was an impossible task. Natasha was a girl with a very common name in a very big country and on the other side of the world. And that's the way it stayed. Until last year, that is. When just after the pandemic started and I moved back to my mum's to keep her company during lockdown, I finally started seriously looking for her. And I never imagined that it would only be a few weeks between getting in touch with Olga Kuzmenkova and mum speaking to Natasha for the first time since 1974, albeit on Zoom.
Jake Warren Are you gonna attempt any Russian?
Debbie Gayle No. ‘Cause I don't speak in Russian. I never... I had a
few words. And it's forty-six years ago and I blanked whatever I had.
Jake Warren Dad always said that you were really good at swearing in Russian.
Debbie Gayle Years ago. Well, I'm not gonna do.
Jake Warren Is this the first Zoom call you've ever done? Debbie Gayle I've never done a Zoom call before.
Jake Warren This is a day of double excitement.
Debbie Gayle Well, shock and horror. I just... Looking at myself, thinking, Who on earth is that woman with a huge nose that looks like a potato? Well, trust me, when you get to my age, you've just [INAUDIBLE] higher and higher and higher. Well, you’re sort of – you’re sort of all right until you're fifty [CROSSTALK].
Jake Warren [CROSSTALK], you said?
Jake Warren Hi, Natasha.
Natasha Oh. Oh, my God. Debbie. Debbie, I thought you... Debbie Gayle Oh, my God.
Jake Warren Hear Natasha's side of the story on the final episode of Finding Natasha. It's in this feed right now. Finding Natasha is a Message Heard production. It’s hosted by me, Jake Warren, and produced by Sandra Ferrari and Jake Otajovič. Edited by Jake Otajovič and executive produced by Sandra Ferrari. A huge thank you goes to Olga, a Russian PI extraordinaire, without whom we'd never found Natasha. And the theme music is by Matt Huxley.
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