CONFLICTED
S01E01
Thomas Small Welcome to the first episode of Conflicted, a new podcast from Message Heard. My name is Thomas Small, and I'll be your host. So, the Middle East, the Muslim world. It's a place of conflict, endless conflict. Sometimes, people think they know more than they do about these conflicts. Sometimes, they know that they don't know anything about them, but they wish to know. What we're going to do is try to unpick these conflicts the best we can, expose the ideological underpinnings of the sides involved, contextualise them historically, add perspective from our personal experiences living in and studying the Middle East, so that hopefully, at the end of each episode, you'll come away thinking, "Aha. I understand this is a hard thing to resolve. These conflicts exist for a reason. It's not necessarily a question of good versus evil. It's a very nuanced problem."
You're going to hear from my co-host, Aimen Dean, in just a minute, a man who, at one point, had decided to commit himself to al-Qaeda.
Aimen Dean There were ten-minutes-walk to Khaled's house. My plan was to say goodbye. By the time I knocked on his door, my plan has changed. I told him, "I'm going to go with you." He said, you know, "For God's sake, Aimen. Do you know that jihad is not a picnic? It's a war. Why would you go?" You know? "Do you think the jihad needs you?" And I even remember that my answer to him changed his mind and changed my life. I said to him, "I know, Khaled, that the jihad doesn't need me, but I need it."
Thomas Small Let's get into it.
We'll start this series with an event that catapulted the conflicts of the Middle East into the global consciousness: The Twin Tower attacks on September 11th.
Aimen Dean Okay.
Thomas Small Right. So, we're just starting.
Aimen Dean Yeah. Go ahead.
Thomas Small Aimen Dean. How do I introduce Aimen Dean? There is literally no one on Planet Earth like Aimen Dean. Saudi-born, but Bahraini nationality. Grew up in Khobar, an oil suburb of the eastern province of Saudi Arabia. From a young age, was very pious, especially following the death of his father, I think that's right, and then his mother. Became a jihadist first in Bosnia then in other theatres, ending up through the vagaries of personal history. In the arms of Osama bin Laden in Afghanistan, where, following the East African Embassy bombings of 1998, he decided to get out. But unbeknownst to him, God or fate had a different idea and he ended up in MI6, working for the Brits, the most important double agent deep inside al-Qaeda, informing against his former jihadist comrades for the British government, thwarting several important terrorist attacks in the process until, sadly, he was outed and ever since has worked in the private sector as a security analyst, working for corporations and banks, living with a fatwā over his head as his former al-Qaeda – the surviving former al-Qaeda jihadists and their followers want to kill him dead for stabbing them in the back. Aimen Dean.
Aimen Dean Well, that was, you know, a rather ominous introduction. Well, Thomas, how am I going to introduce you? Even after years of knowing you—possibly five years now, almost—you know, you're still a mystery to me. All I know is, basically, that you are an American, which I won't hold against you. That you are or you were in the past, you know, on your path to become a monk, a Greek Orthodox monk. And I won't hold that against you either. And, you know, the fact that, somehow, you ended up studying Arabic and Islamic studies. And then, when I met you, I was struck by how amazing your Arabic language skills were and your understanding of Islam and Islamic theology. And I was thinking, "How could a Californian, you know, so much about the theology that influenced my upbringing so much and not only know it well, but also understand the language, the nuances, the… Understand the Bedouin culture?' You know, if I want to describe Thomas Small in few words, I would say that he is no small at all.
Thomas Small Well, here's the thing, Aimen. I met you and I felt weirdly like I had met some kind of spiritual brother.
Aimen Dean Likewise.
Thomas Small Though, on the surface, it may seem unlikely. If you think about it, it's not so unlikely. We both come from coastal regions. In some ways we come from boom regions, on the fringes of the civilisational heartlands of our various cultures. California on one end. The eastern province of Saudi Arabia, which, until oil, was a nothing.
Aimen Dean Absolutely.
Thomas Small It was a wild—. It was the Wild West of the Middle East.
Aimen Dean mmhmm.
Thomas Small We both grew up in, you know, what detractors would call fundamentalist religion. Me a Christian. You, a Muslim. We both, from a young age, felt that turn towards perhaps problematically deep practice of the faith. And then, we both decided to take the most extreme path.
I can tell you growing up in California as an evangelical Christian in the Reagan eighties, Muslims were very much the enemy. No question. They were Satan worshipers on the one hand and they were blowing up planes and killing Americans. And, you know, they – they seemed to me to be a pretty bloodthirsty people. That's how it was being portrayed. Now, I can remember very clearly 9/11. Everyone, of course, remembers where they were on 9/11. It's the watershed moment of our lives, certainly, where we're both about the same age, both born at the end of the seventies. I was in London already. I had been invited to the Travellers' Club on Pall Mall. Can you imagine this sort of young suburban brat being initiated into this wonderful gentlemanly world of the Travellers Club? But my friend, who was a member, he – he needed to get me a suit. So, we walked into Moss Bros on Regent Street to rent me a suit, to hire me a suit, and there was a big flat screen TV on the wall. And everyone was crowded around it. And I looked and I could see smoke coming out of the World Trade Center in New York. Of course, my first thought was: "This is a Hollywood movie." Or I thought maybe, "Is this a retrospective of the 1992 World Trade Center attack or '94?"
Aimen Dean '93.
Thomas Small '93 World Trade Center attack. And then, I was standing. And immediately, the towers began to fall. And I – I realised what was going on. And in my total shock, I just fell onto my knees. I just couldn't believe it. And from that point onward, everything changed. And these Muslims, who I had been raised to vaguely think were a malicious people, were revealed to be very malicious. Or so it seems to those of us who didn't know anything back then. Now, my "Where were you on 9/11 story?" is pretty ordinary, I think. But where were you on 9/11?
Aimen Dean Well, you said you were on Regent Street, yeah? Well, I wasn't far away from you. I was in Oxford Street. That day, basically, I had my regular meeting with one of my handlers from MI6 and the other hundred from MI5. So, we had a meeting. And, of course, there were, in the three months preceding that, many, many different, you know, red flags and warnings and hints something big is about to happen. And we will come to that later. And I was walking down Oxford Street. And there, there were lots of people congregating around the screen in, you know, one of the shops that were selling, you know, TVs. So, I just looked at it and I saw the smoke coming out of the north tower. And I was looking at it and I was thinking, "Maybe that's the one. That's it. This is the one. This is the one that we were warned about, that something big is about to happen. But how did they get the bum way up there?" I thought it was actually not a plane, but a bomb exploding at the higher floors. And then, you know, within minutes, the other plane struck the south tower. And then, I started to realise that, no, these are planes being used as guided weapons against high structures. And it was the World Trade Center, which itself basically was a target just eight years prior. And, somehow – somehow, I knew even then who most likely culprit. And within thirty minutes, my MI6 handler called me and told me that "if you are still in London"—because I was supposed to go to another city—"stay, book a hotel. It's going to be a long week ahead."
Thomas Small When you say "I knew who – who the culprit was," ultimately, the culprit was your friends, your former comrades in al-Qaeda. But why didn't you know about it? I mean, surely they would have told you.
Aimen Dean Well, it comes down to the fact that I began spying against al-Qaeda in late 1998, after the East Africa bombings. And when I returned to Afghanistan to resume, you know, at least, on the surface, my al-Qaeda duties in early 1999, my duties were confined to two areas. One was operational, which was the WMD program for al-Qaeda. So, I was part of the research and development for explosives, poisons, chemical weapons, biological weapons. The second duty, which was also a cover story for me, was being part of the – called the business clan. We used to call it this way: business clan. My duty then, as someone with a valid passport, a young face, and someone basically with relatives in Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Kuwait, is to help a senior al-Qaeda members with families in Afghanistan to export items to the Gulf. Now, many people say, "Well, you were in al-Qaeda? How couldn't you seen it coming?" And the answer was because it was so tightly controlled. The entire process, the planning, the 9/11 hijackers, all of them were trained in separate camps. That's the first thing. So, we never saw them. I only knew three of them, three of the hijackers. You know, Abdulaziz al-Omar, Nawaf al-Hazmi, and [name].
Thomas Small What about the mastermind of – of 9/11? He's very famous. Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. You knew him. You met him in Bosnia, didn't you?
Aimen Dean I was one of college Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's, you know, first recruits into Afghanistan.
Thomas Small Did he seem like the kind of person that would – that would put together and successfully launch a – a terrorist operation killing three thousand people?
Aimen Dean Well, he's a highly gifted engineer.
Thomas Small Well, sure. There are many engineers in the world that don't blow – blow up of planes. It's not—. The fact that he's an engineer, you know, fine. But what I'm talking about, clearly, a very pious Muslim, he must have been.
Aimen Dean One, a pious Muslim. But two, someone with exceptionally deep hatred towards America.
Thomas Small Why do you think he hated America so much? What does America symbolise for these people? What's wrong with us Americans? We're such nice guys.
A; Okay. So, if we are going to talk about what they thought was wrong with America, they believed that, you know, in the classic 1960s, '70, and '80s, they believed that America was, you know, the epitome of colonialism and imperialism, because of their support for, one, Israel; two, for Arab dictators as far as they are concerned. They saw America as the force that is holding back the Muslim world from, one, uniting and, two, progressing and advancing. So, that is why, in their mind, you know, if America is no longer there or, at least, if America would – would leave the Middle East alone, then progress could happen, unity could happen. You know, as if America is the only source of our ills while, in fact, basically, ninety percent of our problems are self-inflicted. But then, tell them that in 1995 and they would be basically telling you, "You know what? You are in the wrong place. Pack your bags and leave."
Thomas Small That's interesting, because, about eighteen months before 9/11, I was in New York City. I had left home with very little money. I was nineteen, twenty years old. I was on my way to – to Greece to – to – to become a monk. That's what I told myself. And I was really full of – of – of a sense of – of – of hatred for what I saw as America's materialist, consumerist society that was – that was turning hearts away from God. I – I didn't even have a place to stay. And I was tramping around lower Manhattan. And I arrived at the World Trade Center. It was the middle of the night. It had rained. And I looked up at the towers and I shook my fist and I said, "I—. One day, I hope someone brings you down." Because for me, they just symbolised what, in fact, I imagine, they symbolise to some extent for al-Qaeda: the epitome of American consumerist finance capitalism, neo-colonial hegemony, which I, as a kind of, at that time, aspiring Christian monk, also very much hated.
Aimen Dean You know what? You talk about American consumerism and, actually, you are not far off the mark as far as what motivated Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. Because they saw American consumerism as part of the capitalist evil. Because, for them, the entire global economic system and banking system is run, according to them and their conspiracy theories, run by the Jews, the Zionists, and it's all done in a manner of usury, in an imperial way.
Thomas Small Usury, meaning in- – meaning charging extravagant interest.
Aimen Dean Indeed, yes. The interest-based banking. And for them, basically, interest-based banking and the entire financial system of the world was controlled by a cabal of elite Zionists and Anglo-Saxon bankers in order to have hegemony over the world. So, that is how they saw it. So—. And remember that Khalid Sheikh actually came from an area in Pakistan called Balochistan, famous for its, you know, deeply socialist leanings, but also almost communist. In fact, in the 1960s and '70s, they used to call Balochistan the Red Balochistan.
Thomas Small That's interesting, because, at the same time that I was pursuing this sort of spiritual journey, which landed me in the monastery, and shaking my fist at the World Trade Center for being opposed, as I saw it, to spirituality …
Aimen Dean Mmhmm.
Thomas Small … you know, the materialism as opposed to spirituality, I was also reading Noam Chomsky at the time and Howard Zinn's A People's History of the United States. And that was very much influencing my antipathy to the West and to America, which, again, I think actually harmonises quite cleanly with the worldview of – of al-Qaeda and other such extremist Muslim jihadist, whatever you want to call them. Terrorists.
Aimen Dean Indeed.
Thomas Small So, when the World Trade Center fell down and I collapsed on my knees in shock, I wouldn't say that my reaction was anger. And I had no desire for revenge. It was more like sadness and, or so I thought, a sense that I understand why this is happening. Almost like justice had been done. I am ashamed to say now I wandered the streets of London the next day sad that, for justice to be done, such a thing was required. I utterly repent of this perspective now, I must say.
Aimen Dean Yeah.
Thomas Small But as a young man infused with religion, infused with Chomsky-style paranoid, left-wing, anti-colonialism, that's how I felt. Now, how did you feel about the attacks? Apart from operational. I mean, obviously, in MI6, you're immediately called upon to do a lot of hard work to find out who did it and stop them. But how did – did you feel? Did—? Was there the glimmer in your heart still of – of a sense of justice has been done or?
Aimen Dean Oh, no. My – my feeling at the time was more like regret, you know. Did I miss something? I mean, that was the moment when I realised that there were other signs that I could have interpreted or I could have picked up. And then, I was just thinking, "How could they have compartmentalised the entire operation in a way that no one else was able to see it coming?" I was told by other members of al-Qaeda in later years that the fifteen hijackers, most of them did not know they were in a suicide mission and most of them did not know until just a week before that they were going to hijack planes. But that's it. They were not told that the planes actually are going to be used as suicidal weapons. Only the pilots and the maybe two or three of the leaders of the hijackers who were told that it's going to be a suicide mission. Someone actually, you know, commented. They said that, until the day, more than two thirds of al-Qaeda's Shura council, which is the council of twenty top men, two-thirds of them—we're talking about twelve people within a twenty-men circle—did not know about it. So, if, you know, some of bin Laden's advisors, close advisors, never knew about it, how would I have known about it? However, there were signs [unintelligible] to that fateful day. I remember the last day I was in Afghanistan before 9/11 was in the first week of June of 2001. So, three months before the events. And by that time, I have stayed about seven weeks in Afghanistan. And I was going to the camps. One, Kabul. One to the – in the north of Kabul, in Muradbig, and then, I also went to Logar to say my farewells to one of my old friends from Saudi Arabia who was with us in Bosnia. And then, I made my way to Kandahar, to the tarnak farms, which is just close to the Kandahar airport. And that's a headquarters of al-Qaeda, where Osama bin Laden resided. And I was just in the prayer room of that, you know, of that complex when someone just came to me. He's a Yemeni. And he told me—. You know, my—. You know, my alias, at the time was [unintelligible]. And so, basically, he told me, [name], someone from the leadership is looking for someone who is actually going to be in the UK very soon. And I just thought of you. Are you going to be in the UK very soon?" And I said yes. And he said, "Okay. Just wait." And then, he came back later and he said, "[name], the deputy of Osama bin Laden wants to see you." So, I didn't understand, you know. I – I hardly ever been summoned by [name], someone as senior as him. And so, I went to see him. And, you know, it was in a very small study. If you can call it a study, actually. You know, there is no desk. There is no share. There is nothing. There's only mattresses on the floor and bookshelves. So, I sat down and they asked me. And he said, "When are you going to be in London exactly?" So, I told him my dates. And then, he said to me, "Then, I have a task for you. When you get to London, I want you to deliver a message." It's a verbal message, which was highly unusual. I always used to take letters sealed and take them and deliver them. So, I don't know the content. Although, MI6 at the time were so expert. They used to open them, copy them, then seal them and give them back to me without telling me the contents. So, I do not betray the information, you know. So – so, he told me, "I have a message, and this message is very simple. There are four individuals in the UK. You must tell them that they need to sort out their affairs, bring their families to Afghanistan before the end of August." So, end of August is the deadline. "If the end of August comes and they are still in the UK and haven't left to come to join us here, tell them then to stay there." So, I, you know—. I was listening to this and I was thinking, you know, "This is highly unusual. It's a verbal message." Then, he told me, "Something big is about to happen. Inshallah," which means "God-willing." "And if it happens, stay where you are. Stay in the UK. Do not be tempted to come to Afghanistan and join the jihad with us here if the Americans were to come to Afghanistan and invade us here. Do not be tempted. Stay where you are."
Thomas Small Or you must have known then that something big was being planned.
Aimen Dean Absolutely. This is when I started to put two and two together and realise that the activities I witnessed in the week before, where they were, you know evacuating many camps, taking away documents, taking away laptops, desktops, you know – you know, taking heavy weapons and munitions. They were transporting them to unknown locations. So, when I was on the plane back, from Pakistan back to the UK, and of course, basically my handlers were waiting for me at Heathrow, and, you know, I was basically carrying with me grim news that, hey, a big attack is about to happen, but I have no idea what it is, I remember some things that [name] said almost a year and a half prior to that, in November of 1999. As it is customary when one of al-Qaeda members, when they are blessed with a boy or a girl, they slaughter lambs and they invite people for this, you know, feast. So, in this feast, which I was part of, and sitting next to me was Abu Mus'ab al-Suri, who's one of the greatest strategic minds of the jihadist movement—.
Thomas Small His – his—. I mean, his works continued to inspire jihadists today.
Aimen Dean Absolutely. He is the one basically who pioneered the lone wolf attack.
Thomas Small Yeah.
Aimen Dean The lone wolf jihad. The individual jihad.
Thomas Small So, he's at this party with you.
Aimen Dean Exactly. And Abu Mus'ab al-Suri was, you know, the one who was basically the guest of honour there. And I remember he actually took from his pocket a paper and he said, "This is a translation of a letter written by a think tank in America addressed to Bill Clinton." And that letter was written a year prior also. So, it's a bit of an old news. But nonetheless, he, you know—. And he and al-Qaeda leadership knew what to do then. He opened the letter. He said, "This is a think tank. It's called the Project for the New American Century." And in this letter addressed to Bill Clinton, the signatories, who are members of this think tank, urged President Bill Clinton, at that time, to invade Iraq and to start the process of democratising the entire Middle East in order to make it a beacon of stability, of hope, and to make the Middle East a more stable region in the long run. And the only way they can do that is by toppling Saddam Hussein using Iraq then as a example of democracy in the Middle East. Now, who are the signatories, the eighteen signatories. I mean, there are many names. We can go through all of them.
Thomas Small Donald Rumsfeld.
Aimen Dean Dick Cheney.
Thomas Small Dick Cheney, of course. Wolfowitz.
Aimen Dean Yes. The deputy. Rumsfeld. Deputy. Condoleezza Rice was one of those. And, in fact, Jeb Bush, you know, George Bush's brother, was one of the signatories.
Thomas Small All the usual suspects.
Aimen Dean Kenneth Adelman, Richard Perle, William Kristol.
Thomas Small I.e. The Neo-con- — the Leading Lights of the Neo-con Movement.
Aimen Dean All the engineers and the architects of the Iraq War, which will happen, basically, five – in almost five years later, signed that letter.
Thomas Small So, Abu [Mus'ab] is reading a translation of this letter to – to you al-Qaeda people.
Aimen Dean Indeed.
Thomas Small And what does he say?
Aimen Dean And he said basically that there was one columnist in America who responded to this letter almost as if it was on behalf of Bill Clinton, saying that, you know, this will never happen, because, you know, the American people will never, ever accept such an undertaking, unless if there was an event in the magnitude of Pearl Harbor.
Thomas Small So—. But – but – but Abu Mus'ab doesn't want America to invade Iraq and bring democracy to the Middle East.
Aimen Dean Oh, he does.
Thomas Small Why?
Aimen Dean He does. It wasn't about bringing democracy. Because they knew the region more than the Americans knew. You see, that's a difference between the Project for the New American Century and al-Qaeda, which was the project for the new Islamic century. They knew their own region and their own people better than the Americans.
Thomas Small They knew that democracy would never just come at – at the – at the end of a bayonet.
Aimen Dean Absolutely. And you see that is the, you know, the genius of al-Qaeda. At least, you know, the up to that point. You see, al-Qaeda have two, you know, programs. First, destroy and then rebuild. They were good at destroy. They are never good at rebuilding.
Thomas Small Creative destruction.
Aimen Dean Exactly.
Thomas Small They, like—. They should all—. They should just move to Silicon Valley.
Aimen Dean Creative disruption or creative destruction. In fact, they called it creative chaos.
Thomas Small Ah.
Aimen Dean [foreign language].
Thomas Small And so, they knew what they were doing. These—. They're not idiots.
Aimen Dean No. no. They were – they were not. They knew exactly what they were doing.
Thomas Small So, they—.
Aimen Dean In fact, you know, Mustafa Abu al-Yazid, who later became the operational leader of al-Qaeda and who was killed, I think, in 2009, but Mustafa Abu al-Yazid, who was a member of the Shura council of Al-Qaeda, he said something very interesting. He said that, you know—and that was in later years and justifying why 9/11 was important—he said that "imagine that you have a house. It's dilapidated. You know, you want to destroy it. You want to build bulldoze it. But there is a problem: You're broke and you don't have a bulldozer. So, what do you do then? Well, in the village, there is, you know, someone who owns a bulldozer, and he's an idiot and someone who has short temper and easily provoked. So, what do you do then? You, you know—. You don't have even the money to hire a bulldozer. You can't pay for his services. So, what do you do? You write a lot of, you know, rude graffiti on the house, insulting him and his wife and his mother and his daughter and everything. And then, basically, he will come and destroy it for you for free. For free.
Thomas Small So – so – so, they attack the World Trade Center in effect by writing huge graffiti in the sky—"Come attack us here in Afghanistan"—because they knew, as well as everyone else, that Afghanistan is the graveyard of empires.
Aimen Dean Indeed.
Thomas Small And they know this, of course, because they, in their own lives, have seen it be a graveyard of empires—
Aimen Dean Absolutely.
Thomas Small —like the other great twentieth century empire, the Soviet Union.
Aimen Dean Absolutely.
Thomas Small So, they think, "Well, the Soviet Union reached its end in Afghanistan. We are going to entice the United States to reach its end in Afghanistan as well." Which is interesting, because, when I was a kid, I knew about the Mujahideen, the famous noble Mujahideen fighting valiantly against the evil empire of communism to free and liberate Afghanistan. And I was convinced, primarily by Hollywood, that the Mujahideen were holy warriors riding their white stallions to defend themselves against the evil empire, as Ronald Reagan called it. For example, I remember I loved James Bond movies, and in 1989, Timothy Dalton's classic, The Living Daylights, one of the great James Bond movies, came out. We watched it. At the end of that movie, James Bond becomes a Mujahid. He becomes a jihadist. Joins this ragtag group of Muslim warriors—
Aimen Dean mmhmm.
Thomas Small —fighting this nefarious plot by a renegade Soviet general in line with a renegade American arms dealer to sell opium. I was very confused. But there you see James Bond riding – riding into battle with the Mujahideen. I think the same year, if not the year before, Rambo III comes out.
Aimen Dean I saw that.
Thomas Small Rambo becomes one of the Mujahideen as well. And at that last shot, he's riding his Mujahideen horse up against a whole battalion of tanks, Soviet tanks, all by himself. The – the Mujahideen were the great heroes, and the film ends with the dedication to the brave men of the Mujahideen.
Aimen Dean Wow.
Thomas Small And, apparently, I'm told it's – it's—. That – that – that dedication remains to the state. You can watch it on Netflix, and – and you get to the end of the film. "To the brave men of the Mujahideen." When you were growing up in Saudi Arabia, you must have thought that those men were brave.
Aimen Dean Oh, indeed.
Thomas Small For all I know, you still think they're brave.
Aimen Dean Well, of course. I mean, after all you know, their – their cause was just, was to throw out the invaders. Any country would do that. Any people would do that. I remember there are people from our neighbourhood in Khobar who went to during the Mujahideen in Afghanistan, who, you know, thought it was a noble thing to do.
And there were thousands of Arab volunteers from Saudi Arabia, North Africa, Egypt, Jordan who went to fight there in Afghanistan. Except what happened in Afghanistan at the time is that many people who were in prison in Egypt, especially Egypt, for attempting to overthrow the government of Sadat first and then Mubarak [crosstalk].
Thomas Small Inspired by – by famous Muslim brotherhood ideologue, Sayyid Qutb.
Aimen Dean Absolutely. Sayyid Qutb.
Thomas Small Sayyid Qutb, the most—. The sort of grandfather of – of – of modern jihadism.
Aimen Dean Indeed. Actually, like, I mean, you know, his writings inspired those who killed Sadat and then wanted to overthrow Mubarak. So, they found in the Afghan jihad a space in which they can breathe, a train, a thing. And it was these people, especially three people—[name], Abu Mus'ab al-Suri, [name]. They met Osama bin Laden there. He was just young, idealistic, a – a—.
Thomas Small Rich.
Aimen Dean Rich.
Thomas Small Handsome.
Aimen Dean Exactly. Tall.
Thomas Small Articulate.
Aimen Dean Charismatic. He was there and all he wanted was just to help the Afghan jihad. But what poisoned his mind were these three individuals who were released from prison, or escaped from prison in Egypt, made it all the way to Afghanistan,, because they saw in it a, you know, an ideal fertile land to not only recruit, but also to train and to strategize the next phase of jihad. So, they saw Osama bin Laden. They thought that's it. "This is it. This is the symbol. This is the man who we could ride as a horse towards the sunlit uplands, you know, of Islamic caliphate in Egypt.
Thomas Small But, surely, they didn't introduce him to the ideas of Sayyid Qutb and stuff. I mean, people knew about Sayyid Qutb. I think you yourself, you drank deeply from the well of Sayyid Qutb following the death of your mother. You found in Sayyid Qutb tremendous constellation. What about Sayyid Qutb and his now infamous writings?
Aimen Dean Well, these writings influenced Osama bin Laden greatly.
Thomas Small No. no. You. I'm talking about you.
Aimen Dean Okay.
Thomas Small What—? How did they? Why did they – why did they give you so much constellation as a young Muslim growing up in Saudi Arabia?
Aimen Dean Well, I must remember, you know, how Sayyid Qutb wrote these books. I mean, there is a book called Fi Zilal al-Quran, which means "in the shades of the Qur'an." And this book was written over nine years period, because it covers the entire Qur'an. It's – it's – it's a commentary on the Qur'an. But not from a theological sense, but from a literary sense, from an inspirational sense. And he wrote that book, four thousand pages when he was in prison, over nine years. And Nasser's prisons in Egypt in the 1950s and '60s were no picnic. I mean, they were exceptionally hard, harsh, dark prisons.
Thomas Small And so, how—? Why – why would these [unintelligible]? Why would these words, these four thousands have spoken to you?
Aimen Dean Because they were written through the prism of pain. And the pain wasn't just only about his own pain being inside prison and isolation and, you know, living sometime, you know, in a scary cell where he was doused with animal fat and let loose the dogs on him to bite him, or, sometime, basically, he would find, you know, snakes, you know, coming into his cell. So, of course, all of these dark, scary moments for him were reflected in his writings, where he turned that suffering into something that was of – of immense literary beauty. So, he spoke from the heart to the heart.
Thomas Small And he spoke to your young heart?
Aimen Dean Indeed.
Thomas Small Put – put – put me in your head at that time. What what's going on in your head?
Aimen Dean There were so many things going on inside of my head, because, you see, I grew up in Saudi Arabia. My mother was Lebanese. So, in the 1980s, she was worried about her family back home suffering the effects of the civil war in Lebanon.
It was a ethnic and sectarian and religious civil war.
Thomas Small And sort of in microcosm what – what – what one can see now em- – embroiling the whole Middle East.
Aimen Dean Indeed. And I was living in the Eastern province of Saudi Arabia where, just across the water from us, to the north, we have a raging brutal war between Iraq and Iran that was also both ethnic and sectarian. And then, later when I was only twelve, you know, just before my mother's death, I saw that my city, Khobar, was swamped with the world's wealthiest refugees. You know, basically, refugees arriving in their Cadillacs and Mercedes-Benz and BMWs from Kuwait.
Thomas Small From Kuwait.
Aimen Dean Because, you know, Saddam Hussein just invaded Kuwait. And, of course, Kuwait is – had a fabulous rich lifestyle. Suddenly, they found themselves refugees, even though they were in a riding Mercedes-Benz and BMWs and Cadillacsm, you know.
Thomas Small And shortly thereafter, then your – your – your area's swarming with American
troops.
Aimen Dean Oh, Humvees everywhere. And, you know, we used to have some American fast food chains. You know, basically, we have to stand in line way behind these, you know – you know, very hungry, you know, American soldiers basically who were or- ordering four burgers and ten fries, you know, apiece.
Aimen Dean It's – it's amazing to think you over there in Khobar watching the Humvees arrive and these big American soldiers. 'Cause in America, I was being told, "Saddam Hussein is gonna come get us. He – he's probably got nuke – nukes. He's going to kill you all." And we would have on the radio: "I'm proud to be in America or, at least, I know I'm free." It was this big thing. We were all like, "Get Saddam. Get Saddam." And there you are having to, you know, queue in line while the Americans get their burgers first.
Aimen Dean Absolutely. And, you know, we thought, basically, "This is unfair." But, you know – you know, it shows basically how, at the time, Americans – American soldiers were leaving their weapons and their Humvees, parking in the normal streets, going into a Saudi, you know, based burger chains and mixing with us and having no fear of us whatsoever. Whatsoever. I mean, basically, you cannot imagine this in this world anymore, you know. And they were there because we saw them basically as some sort of guarantee that Saddam Hussein is not going to venture south and capture the oil fields of the eastern province of Saudi Arabia.
Thomas Small So – so, in general, you were pleased that they were there. You felt they were protecting you. Because, as we all know, in a way King Fahd of Saudi Arabia's decision to invite the Americans in was the fateful decision that led to some kind of ideological justification for al-Qaeda and similar groups and their antipathy to the Saudi Royal family to America's presence in the Middle East and so on.
Aimen Dean Indeed. You see, this is where my conflict began. You know, Osama bin Laden did not like one bit the presence of those troops inside Saudi Arabia. Not one bit. And he was trying to convince the Saudi Royal family, "Please do not invite the Americans. Let us, the Mujahideen, sort this out."
Thomas Small And he was able to get the ear of the Saudi Royal family, because, as a Mujahid in the Afghanistan war, he had developed close contacts with the Saudi government at the highest level, including the fact that, as a member of the prominent bin Laden family, he was well-known. Would have Osama bin Laden's Mujahideen been able to take care of this situation, expelled the battle-hardened Iraqi army from Kuwait? Surely not.
Aimen Dean Well, come on. Of course, basically, there was no way this would be sorted out by the Mujahideen. It needed American firepower.
Thomas Small Why not? The Mujahideen had sorted out the Soviet Union?
Aimen Dean Yeah. In a long, protracted, eleven years war. No [crosstalk].
Thomas Small In the mountains, not in the—.
Aimen Dean Exactly. Not in the desert. And Saddam Hussein's army was eight years veteran army of the Iraq-Iran war. And, plus, at the same time, basically, they were a different cookie altogether. So, here, however, you know, this is where the conflict began. Because, basically, I was already part of Islamic awareness circles. There were already religious clerics who I listened to, I – I respected, adhered to. These clerics were giving lectures and talking about their displeasure with the presence of the Americans. So, on one hand, I'm happy they are there. But on the other hand, I have a loyalty to my clerics and my clergy, who basically were not very happy about these Americans being there.
Thomas Small So, there you are. You're conflicted. On the one hand, the American troops are protecting you. On the other hand, all of these radical clerics are – are encouraging you to be very displeased about their presence. What is the through-line from that place of conflict two, three or four years later you deciding to go to Bosnia as a young jihadist?
Aimen Dean Well, after the Gulf War ended and Saddam Hussein was expelled from Kuwait, there was another event basically that really propelled me towards, you know, great – towards searching for a greater meaning, greater purpose, which was the passing of my mother. She was only forty-nine at that time. And it was a brain aneurysm that, you know, was – was so unforeseen. And for me, that event led me to delve deeper into the world of theology from the perspective of politics.
Thomas Small Why?
Aimen Dean Well, I mean, first of all, you are looking for a spirituality, but a spirituality basically that has a place in the world, you know, that shapes history.
Thomas Small But I still don't see the link between that and your mother's death.
Aimen Dean Because, remember, my mother was my moral compass and, basically, she is the one who actually I would say politicise me because of her worry about the Lebanese civil war.
Thomas Small I see.
Aimen Dean You know, the effects of that on the sectarian and ethnic harmony of the Middle East. Or lack of harmony, I would say. So, my political educator is gone.
Thomas Small Do you think she would have supported your decision to go to Bosnia as a
jihadist?
Aimen Dean Oh, I would say basically she would have confiscated my passport, locked me up in a room until, basically, I came back to my senses.
Thomas Small And did you know that – that you would have been going against her wishes by doing it?
Aimen Dean Indeed. But I was interpreting that in my mind as it was her wishes as a mother, not her wishes as someone who have a duty towards fellow Muslims.
Thomas Small So, you lost your moral compass and the ideology of the Mujahideen provides you with a replacement, which allows you both to get some sense of spiritual fulfilment and allows you to pursue a path with real political ramifications.
Aimen Dean Indeed.
Thomas Small And what – what, at that time, in your mind, what political ramifications were you pursuing?
Aimen Dean Well, of course, the Bosnian conflict was raging. I remember one of my own teachers, our beloved math teacher–—his name was Osama [name]; ironically, another Osama—you know. died in Bosnia. And, you know, we were thinking, you know, first of all, Bosnia, why, you know, what is happening, you know, so suddenly the conflict in Bosnia that was raging for a few months already became a reality in our classroom, even though it was, you know, three thousand kilometres away. And I remember another fellow teacher of his, when he came to our classroom in order to, you know, give us or attempting to give us, you know, what he thought was counselling, you know, he, you know, answered one of the questions as to why would a young man with a life – a full life, a wonderful life, you know, potentially rich life ahead of him, would go and, you know, die somewhere else for people we hardly know.
Aimen Dean Why would he?
Thomas Small And he said that because it is our duty to help those fellow Muslims who are in desperate need. And, sometimes, if you don't do it, then who will do it? And then, he talked about the fact that it doesn't matter if you come from a rich family or a poor family, from a middle class or from an upper class. What matters in the end is your willingness to sacrifice. And in the case of our teacher, his sacrifice would have tasted far sweeter, because he had it all and gave it all away. So, the words [unintelligible]. Sacrifice, jihad, Bosnia. All of them started to resonate, because it was in our own classroom. So, that was the first trigger, you know, for me as far as I'm concerned, that Bosnia is a place where I could go. Because if my teacher who was standing in front of that blackboard was able to go there, fight, and die there, then, why couldn't I? I remember when I turned sixteen, I was having a dinner with a friend of mine. And, in fact, his brother was even a closer friend of mine. So, I remember I was having a dinner with his brother, and he was telling me, "Did you say goodbye to Khalid?" So, I looked at him and I would say, "Why would I say goodbye to him?" So, he just realised, "Oops." You know? "I'm not supposed to have told you this." But then he told me that Khalid actually is living to Bosnia within a week. So, you know, he's sorting out his affairs. "And so, if you want to say goodbye to him, go and say goodbye." There were ten minutes, you know, walk, you know, from that dinner place to Khalid's house. My plan was to say goodbye. By the time I knocked on his door, my plan has changed. I told him, "I'm going to go with you." And I still remember basically he's looking at me and thinking, "Come again. What did you say?" I said, "I'm going with you." He said, "No." You know? "For God's sake, Aimen. Do you know, basically, the jihad is not a picnic? It's a war. People lose lives, limbs, get injured so badly. I mean, it's scary. You know, shells landing, bullets whizzing by. It's not going to be a picnic." So, I said, "Yeah, I know. I mean, I know basically that it's not going to be something easy or, you know—. But I, you know, I really want to go." And he said to me, "Yes. But, Aimen, you know – you know, you're sixteen. Bespectacled, bookish, nerdish, geek-ish, boy. Like, I mean, why would you go?" You know? "Do you think the jihad needs you?" And I remember that my answer to him changed his mind and changed my life. I said to him, "I know, Khalid, that the jihad doesn't need. But I need it. So—."
Thomas Small You need it for?
Aimen Dean For my own betterment. For my own spiritual betterment. For my own place in history. For me not being a spectator on the side line, just watching the caravan passing by and, later years, regretting that I never hopped on that caravan and went with them into that journey. Not just only to explore, you know, what is there at the very end, but beyond it, which – which means the afterlife.
Thomas Small Well, certainly, your journey took you in places you never foresaw. But also, I think the journey of the jihadist movement went in places that no one could foresee. So, you know, you joined the Mujahideen in Bosnia for, let's – let's face it, noble aims. Bosnian Muslims were being slaughtered by Serbs and Croats, and you went to defend them. But how do you go from that? How does a movement go from that to the morning of September 11th, when men fly airplanes into a building in America and kill civilians? Who are they defending? What – what—? When – when did jihadism change from the characters at the end of Rambo III and The Living Daylight to the 9/11 hijackers and Osama bin Laden. What happened?
Aimen Dean What happened, Thomas, was Bosnia. Bosnia happened. You see, many people don't understand that Bosnia was the fork in the road that separated now the jihadist from the west, where the interest diverged, where the ideological alliance that happened during the jihad against the Soviets completely disappeared. And, basically, the west went in one direction and the jihadist went into the other. What happened in Bosnia is that the war was ugly. It was genocidal and it was over identity, a Muslim identity that was attacked with the intention of annihilating it. And what was shocking for us is that the Muslims of Bosnia looked nothing like, you know, the Muslims in the rest of the Muslim world. They were, you know, blue- and green-eyed. They were blonde-haired. They were fair-skinned. Except that, you know, they didn't look any different from their Serbian neighbours. In fact, genetically even, they are the same.
Thomas Small South Slavs. They all speak the same language, basically.
Aimen Dean Exactly. They spoke the same line. They intermarried actually before the war. You know, they looked like each other, but except, the difference where in the names only in. Because even Muslims lived under communism in Yugoslavia for seventy years. They almost – almost became indistinguishable in there.
Thomas Small It was a secular state. They didn't [crosstalk].
Aimen Dean Absolutely.
Thomas Small There's not much religiosity going on.
Aimen Dean Absolutely. Only that their names were Ahmed and Mohammed and Mirsad or, you know—. So, they – they had these Muslim names. And, basically, slaughter was happening based on your name. If your name is Muslim, that's it. You're done. And that is what shook us to the core. That if Muslims who had only just their names, the remnants and, you know, the mosques, which served more like ornaments, you know, rather than an actual place of worship.
Thomas Small But what does it have to do with flying planes into the World Trade Center?
Aimen Dean For the jihadist there, they believe that the war was taking on a Christian symbology against Islam. This is a new crusade. So, the language in which the jihadists were framing this conflict and the narrative they were putting together was that this is a new crusade. So, this is the Christian world. It's not just only the Serbs with their nationalism masquerading as Christianity, you know, slaughtering Muslims. No. No. No. No. This is a Western—American, British, French—enabled genocide against Muslims, which was, of course, far from the truth.
Thomas Small But that's total nonsense.
Aimen Dean Absolutely.
Thomas Small They must have known it was nonsense. That's a cynical way of describing what was going on in Bosnia, because they were already convinced that the Americans were an evil empire that needed to be destroyed.
Aimen Dean Exactly. But, of course, when I went there to Bosnia, how would I have known that our leaders will be Jemaah Islamiyah, Egyptian Jemaah Islamiyah who actually killed Sadat in 1981 because of the fact that he signed the peace treaty with Israel. So, of course, they were the enemies of peace. But I did not know that. I was only sixteen. I went there thinking I was going to do something noble. And this is the problem, is that you have a noble cause, but then it's led by the wrong leaders who basically use it in order to manufacture a narrative that there is a greater conflict. For me, now with hindsight years, he is later, I realised that the Serbs were fighting a nationalist war. Yes, they cloaked their nationalistic cause with Christian symbology. But it was enough to fool the naive young men from the Arab world who came to fight in Bosnia that it is a crusade. And they then turned their hatred against America, because they believed, by the end of the war that the Americans are rewarded the Serbs with half of the Bosnian territory, even though there were only one third of the population. You know, they rewarded their genocide by having this in a half-baked peace treaty between the two – the three sides—the Bosnians, the Serbs, and the Croats. So, how Khalid Sheikh Mohammed—we come back again to him—the architect of 9/11, when he arrived in Bosnia, just only, you know, several weeks before the date and agreement was signed, he was telling us that the conflict is about to end, because, already, the negotiations are taking place. There is a truce. There is a ceasefire. "And remember brothers—." I remember his words. He said, "Remember, brothers. Why do we allow the Americans and other world powers to dictate where we fight? Why are we running from one fringe conflict on the fringes of the Muslim world from a Bosnia to a Chechnya to a Kashmir, and we keep fighting in these conflicts and we leave the centre? It's the centre of the Muslim world that is so weak that actually allowed the fringes of the Muslim world to suffer so greatly in these conflicts. So, we need to reclaim the centre, reshape the centre, remake the centre, and recreate the glories of the Muslim caliphate."
Thomas Small That get us to the – the question, the important question of what al-Qaeda really wanted to happen following 9/11. What did they think was going to happen? So, they run—. They fly two planes into the World Trade Center. They elicit this massive response from the great global hegemon, the United States, which they hope will get bogged down in Afghanistan, will be become bankrupt, will upset the local population in America to turn against the government so that America would withdraw from the Middle East, leaving it open for the Mujahideen to topple governments like the Saudi government, relay claim to the heartlands of the Muslim world from which they could then spread out and conquer the Muslim world in order to return it to the glories of – of the past. That's basically the – the narrative?
Aimen Dean No. The—. It's—. I would say basically, like, you are half right. But it's not about forcing the Americans to leave the Middle East. Actually, it is inviting the Americans to come to the Middle East. Again, we come back to the bulldozer analogy. You know, they saw the Americans, not as, you know, a stability factor, but instability factor. Bringing the Americans to be the bulldozer that will bulldoze Iraq. Why Iraq was important and why it needed to be bulldozed, because Saddam Hussein was the last standing pillar of Arab nationalism. And Arab nationalism was the last hurdle in front of Islamism as an ideology.
Thomas Small The last secular ideology in the Middle East.
Aimen Dean Exactly. The least the last hurdle in front of an Islamist takeover. So, doing 9/11 enticed the Americans to go into Iraq, because, already, as we talked about before, Abu Mus'ab al-Suri saw that the American administration might be actually tempted to go into Iraq if there was a massive attack, you know, on American soil. You know, and bin Laden particularly chose deliberate all the hijackers—not the pilots, the hijackers—to be from Saudi Arabia. Because what is the biggest target for Osama bin Laden? Always—.
Thomas Small Saudi Arabia,
Aimen Dean Saudi Arabia.
Thomas Small From 1995, I think, his first war against the house of Saud.
Aimen Dean Exactly. And, you know, in 1996, when he landed back from Sudan into Afghanistan, we went to meet him. You know, we were in a camp not far away from where he was, forty-five minutes drive. And I still remember when we met him at the first time, when he arrived from Sudan, he looked dishevelled. He looked like a refugee. Many people who saw some of, a lot of them for the first time, they see this neat turban, you know, nice robes, well, you know, ironed, no crease in them whatsoever. No. The Osama bin Laden I met for the first time in August of 1996 looked like a refugee. Along with his al-Qaeda followers.
Thomas Small He – he was a refugee.
Aimen Dean Exactly. He's just lucky to be escaping with his life and he was in compound belonging to another Afghan warlord. It wasn't his. You know, all of their belongings are still basically in boxes and metal boxes, and it's all around, you know, in a disorganised way. So, when we sat with him, there were fourteen of us. When we sat with him, because he was asking if there are any people from Saudi Arabia [unintelligible]. Of course, basically, that's why we went to see him. So, he was talking to us and he was telling us about how God brought him from Sudan into Afghanistan. And I was thinking, "Are you trying to comfort yourself here? I mean, isn't it the fact that you were stabbed in the back by President Bashir of Sudan and his ally, Turabi." And, you know, and then he started talking about prophecies. And he started to weaponize eschatology, Islamic eschatology, and the prophecies of old to justify that he is in Afghanistan, because Afghanistan is going to be the launch place for the army of the Black Banners that will liberate Mecca, Medina, and Jerusalem, all of these three holy cities, you know. So, of course, if you want to liberate Mecca and Medina, then from who? Because who is actually ruling over Mecca and Medina? The Saudi Royal family. And for him, he was talking about how the Americans are occupying the two holy places. That the land of Muhammad is occupied by the American forces and their presence in Saudi Arabia is an affront to Islam. I was thinking, "Well, there are only fifteen thousand of them at the time, basically. I mean, the Saudi army is three hundred thousand. So, I don't think it wasn't occupation. It was just basically, you know, a form of, you know, protection and military cooperation." But, you know, don't tell this to them. He then went on to say, when he looked at our faces—. And bin Laden was so good at reading faces. He can read your expression and see if you are happy or sceptical, if you are convinced or not. So, he saw that bewildered looks on our faces, because now he's telling us, and still a foreign, alien idea to us, that we'll be fighting against Saudi Arabia, against our own people, against our own relatives who work in the security services. He said, "Remember, when the Prophet Mohammed was escaping from Mecca, going on his dangerous migration trip to Medina, when he was escaping, Arab tribes put a huge bounty on his head, trying to prevent him from reaching Medina and establishing his, you know, early political society there. And when, finally, one knight caught up with him, the prophet confronted that knight, who was trying to get the bounty—he was trying to kill the prophet—he confronted him and he said that 'I will be reaching Medina, and my faith will reach the horizons from the east to the west, and the Persian empire will fall. And I see you'"—he was talking to the Arab knight; his name was [Suraca]—"'I see you Suraca wearing the crown and the bracelets of the Persian emperor." So, of course, you know, the knight was so sceptical. It's like, you know, "You're a fugitive. You are a fugitive and you are threatening the might of Persia, you know, which no one has ever threatened this might before. It's a mighty empire." And he said, "It's either you're crazy or you're truly telling the truth. So, if you are telling the truth, then I want it in writing." So, the Prophet Muhammad, you know, instructed his companion to scribe, you know, for that night that he will be wearing the crown and the bracelets of the Persian emperor. Sixteen years to that day, it came true that, that knight was wearing the crown and the bracelets of the Persian emperor, and the Persian empire collapsed under the weight of the Muslim armies. So, bin Laden was telling us this story to restore our faith, to tell us that we could be refugees now, but we could change history. So, if you—. Thomas, if you see them as I saw them in 1996 and you can't believe that five years later, just only five years, these people, these bunch of refugees will change world history and will launch the most audacious and deadly terrorist attack in human history.
Thomas Small And so much of what they calculated to happen did happen. The Americans went to Afghanistan where they remain bogged down. They did enter Iraq, participating in destabilising the political patchwork of the region.
Aimen Dean Yes.
Thomas Small Of course, the jihadists that she had assisted them in that. They did withdraw their troops from Saudi Arabia, moving them to Qatar.
Aimen Dean Indeed.
Thomas Small And nothing has been the same. But nonetheless, still Osama bin Laden, his goal, ultimately, was political power. Once the house of Saud was toppled, once the Americans had done their dirty work for them and destabilised the region and then withdrawn, so the region is – is now, you know—. There's tremendous power vacuum opening up, Osama bin Laden imagined himself with the crown of the Persian emperor on his head. Do you think that's what he wanted?
Aimen Dean I think he wanted the restoration of the caliphate. He believed in eschatology. He believed that he was one of those foretold in the prophecies that would be paving the way for the Mahdi. You know, the Messiah. So, basically 9/11, not only have, you know, eschatology behind it, messianic vision behind it, and, you know, a political vision behind it, and ideological vision behind it, but also what was ultimately the aim and the goal is creative chaos. That chaos that should reign over the entire region to allow the forces of Islamism to take over. Because he saw what happened in Afghanistan after the civil war between the Mujahideen and the collapse of law and order and the raise of the warlords. That chaos was what enabled the Taliban to take over the entirety of Afghanistan except for a small pocket in the north. You know, so, he saw that chaos will make people yearn for law and order. And the only people who can give law and order based on Sharia are who? The Mujahideen.
Thomas Small When I was growing up an evangelical in California, it was absolutely an article of faith to us all that the world was coming to an end soon and that the prophecies in the book of revelation at the end of the Bible—
Aimen Dean [unintelligible].
Thomas Small were coming true through, at that time, the clash between the divine United States and the godless Soviet Union. And we were all told, absolutely, that there was no real need for us to dream about our future careers or our future lives, because it was going to happen. The end of the world was nigh. Ronald Reagan was acting as a vehicle for God's power by destroying the Soviet Union, and the state of Israel was a sign that Christ was going to return. And I mean, that sort of thing that was populating my mind as a kid, was that also in the air of these jihadist camps? Did you think the end of the world was soon?
Aimen Dean Wow. I mean, you just mentioned, you know, the state of Israel. And now, I'm thinking, "Wow." Why? Because, you know, in, you know, in summer of 1997, when the head of bin Laden's bodyguard, [name]. He was trying to recruit me into al-Qaeda. And, you know, he was walking with me and telling me about the age of prophecies and how these prophecies, which Osama bin Laden spoke about a year area and I heard him talk about them, he was adamant that we are in the age of prophecies. And if we don't fulfil them, then who would do? Aliens from Mars coming down to do it for us? No. It would be us. So, I told him, you know, "Okay. How do you know that we are living in the age of prophecies?" He said, "Because the age of prophecies." And the trigger was the return of the Jews to the Holy Land.
Thomas Small How fascinating. It's the same thing.
Aimen Dean Exactly.
Thomas Small Although, of course, as a Christian, we thought that that was a good thing, 'cause, you know, the – the Jews are still the chosen people and Israel is theirs.
And, you know, of course, we didn't care about Muslim claims or Arab claims on Israel at all.
Aimen Dean Yeah.
Thomas Small They just seemed to be extraneous. We didn't even think about them, to be perfectly honest. But you're on the other side of the – of that story. You – you see it as a profoundly satanic sign that the end of the world is nigh. The Jews were turning to Israel is a sign that the forces of darkness are gathering, which will incite the Mahdi to return and the end of the world to occur.
Aimen Dean Exactly. Because, you know, the eschatology taught in al-Qaeda camps is that the return of the Jews to the Holy Land. And they don't date it from 1948, which is the establishment of the state of Israel. No, they date it from the 1967. Because in the six days war in 1967, Israel captured Jerusalem. So, for them, the – the – the Temple Mount, you know, the site where Al-Aqsa Mosque and the dome of the rock stands, the capture of that site is the trigger of the beginning of the end. So, that's how they see it. So, they say, basically, that the Mahdi, who's the Muslim Messiah, will emerge because—.
Thomas Small No. Let's be – let's be specific about that. The Muslim Messiah is Jesus.
Aimen Dean And—.
Thomas Small [crosstalk] Jesus.
Aimen Dean Indeed.
Thomas Small So, who is—? What's the difference between the Mahdi and the Messiah?
Aimen Dean Well, the Mahdi means "the guided one." He's a saviour who would emerge to reunite the Muslim world. But the Muslim world the unification will trigger the return or the emergence of the antichrist, you know, who will lead the Jews and the Zionist Christians in a battle against Muslims, which will basically then, you know, lead to the descent of Jesus into this world in order to end this conflict on the side of Muslims. That's what we were taught in the camps.
Thomas Small And you believed it?
Aimen Dean At the time, I believed it.
Thomas Small Did it make you feel very excited?
Aimen Dean [unintelligible].
Thomas Small The end of the world. The age of prophecies.
Aimen Dean Well, it's not just only about the end of the world. You are doing God's work, you know. And you are here as a God's agent doing God's work.
Thomas Small And that included hacking people to death in Bosnia?
Aimen Dean That was included. You know, the idea basically was that you are here on earth as a God's instrument. So, when you tell people that you are here on earth as a God's instrument, what do you think they will do? Anything they do, basically, is sacrosanct, is basically something that is ordained by God.
Thomas Small But why in the mentality of jihadists—
Aimen Dean Mmhmm.
Thomas Small —is being an instrument of God, a license to kill people? Why is it that God wants people to be killed all the time?
Aimen Dean I think it's one of the most difficult questions that are hard to reconcile myself with. I mean, basically, how do we see this avenge-ful God who wants people to fight against other people? And I remember I asked myself this question so many times. And I remember that, in the Qur'an, there is a verse, which talks about war as a necessary evil, as war being the instrument of progress. You know, if you look at the Qur'an or how, you know, scholars of the Qur'an interpreted that verse, they're talking about the fact that we are put here on this earth as a test. Some of us will do good. Some of us will do evil. And those who do good will need to push against those who do evil or evil will reign. So, it is almost what [name] said before, that evil triumph when good people do nothing. So, in essence, war was ordained by God in order to ensure that the world will have peace or the security and stability and progress. The Qur'an described war as an instrument of progress.
Thomas Small As a Christian, though, I actually understand the logic of what you're saying and can see that on some level it is true, it is impossible for me to believe that that is something ordained by God. That God would actually wish young men to kill civilians in order to further His own aims. I mean, even in the – in the New Testament, Christ—.
Aimen Dean I don't believe that myself. [crosstalk].
Thomas Small No. I know you don't. I know you don't. But nonetheless, there is a – there is a sort of stark divide—
Aimen Dean Yeah.
Thomas Small —between the mentalities here.
Aimen Dean Indeed.
Thomas Small That in – in Islam, God uses violence to further His aims and, in Christianity, that idea that God would use violence any more, at least, to further His aims is – is – is very difficult to believe. Christ said, "Offenses must come, but woe unto him through whom those offenses come." This idea that God knows that there will be evil in the world, that there will be violence war, et cetera. But the instruments for whom that violence occurs are never within his grace or whatever. It's very different.
Aimen Dean Indeed. But you see, in from the Islamic point of view, we see ourselves nothing as an extension of the New Testament, but as an extension of the Old Testament. So, the God of Islam is identical to the God of the Old Testament, of the Torah, of the Tanakh. You know, of the Jewish Tanakh. Rather than, you know, of the Christian New Testament, the Christian Bible. Because you see, in – in Islam, the relationship between the individual and the Creator are far more complex, for example, than the relationship between the individual and the Creator in Christianity. And Islam, it is based on love, fear, and hope while, in Christianity, it's solely based on love, so.
Thomas Small Well, I think that's a simplification, to be honest.
Aimen Dean Yeah.
Thomas Small I think there's a lot of fear in Christianity, because God does send you to hell after all if you've been very bad.
Aimen Dean Yeah. Well, it's the same in Islam, except, you know, in Islam, basically the complexity of that relationship, it governs why we sometime have to go to war, not just only for defence, but for offense. And that's basically how, you know, al-Qaeda, for example, used up that. Because, you see, we come back to the issue here. Al-Qaeda uses violence. But there is a great divide within Islam right now, who has the prerogative to use violence? Is it the individual or the state? Throughout thirteen hundred years of Islam, we always, always understood that violence can only be deployed by the state. Whether in defensive or offensive measure, that's up to the state and up to the leaders of the state. But it cannot be wielded or be deployed by individuals or groups of things. The civil war within Islam right now raging over this very question between those who believe that jihad and violence can only be deployed by the state and those who believe no, not only can be deployed by individuals and groups of individuals, but it could also be deployed by them against the state.
Thomas Small Well, certainly, as a result of 9/11, all hell broke loose in the Middle East and a new chapter in the conflicts of the region opened. It's called the War on Terror. You played a role in that war. I certainly did not. I watched from the side lines like the rest of humanity. And that's what we're going to talk about in the next podcast, the War on Terror and what it was like as a double agent working both in MI6 and al-Qaeda in that war. And what I look forward to hearing about really having—. You've – you've – you've described so well the motivations and psychology of – of the jihadist, what they expected. It'd be interesting to hear as well next time what – what goes through the mind of a spy and whether those are actually quite similar, maybe. I don't know.
Aimen Dean Well, I look forward to having this discussion. I enjoyed it so much.
Thomas Small This episode of Conflicted was produced by Jake Warren and Sandra Ferrari. Original music by Matt Huxley. If you want to hear more of Conflicted, make sure you search for us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you download yours.