Conflicted S1 E6 - Returning Jihadists
CONFLICTED
S01E06
Thomas Small Welcome back to Conflicted, the podcast where we do our best to explain to you the most complicated conflicts raging in the world today, the conflicts of the Arab and Muslim worlds. This is our last episode of this series. We hope we've been able to shed some light on the issues that we have been discussing.
Today, we'll dig a bit deeper into the psychology of the jihadist and what compels him to take up arms in defence as he sees it of Islam.
Aimen Dean The prophecies, it's all a lie. It's all one big con from history. You know, it's poisoned their minds. It's very intoxicating, unfortunately.
Thomas Small Aimen will also give us some insight into how jihadists are recruited, where they are recruited from. But we'll also get to the ever-important issue: How are we to respond to the threat of jihadists returning? And we'll also find out how al-Qaeda uncovered Aimen's double agent status. So many things to explore today.
Let's get started. This is Conflicted.
I am here as ever with Aimen Dean, author of Nine Lives: My Time as MI6's Top Agent Inside al-Qaeda. And I am Thomas Small, co-producer of Path of Blood, a documentary film about al-Qaeda's attempt to overthrow the Saudi government.
Good morning, Aimen. How are you?
Aimen Dean I'm still alive, Thomas. I'm still alive.
Thomas Small Still alive. Well, that, I hope will long remain the case. I see you've got your – your usual dose of Diet Coke. You drink more Diet Coke, I think, than anyone I know.
Aimen Dean Except for Trump, though.
Thomas Small Oh, well. That's something you and Donald Trump have in common. I wonder how much else you have in common.
Aimen Dean You never know.
Thomas Small You never know. You never know. Well, Aimen, it's been a long journey so far through your remarkable life and mining the incredible – the incredible wealth of knowledge inside that head of yours. I can't thank you enough for revealing your secrets to me and to the listeners. I'm sure everyone is very grateful to you.
Aimen Dean Oh, thank you so much. I think I maybe did they poor job so far. But, you know, we'll leave up to the listener.
Thomas Small Oh. Very humble of you. Very humble of you. I'm sure that Allah has just given you a few more pennies in heaven.
Aimen Dean Thank you.
Thomas Small So, we've been discussing the War on Terror 9/11, the Iraq War, the – the…
Aimen Dean The Yemen war.
Thomas Small The Yemeni civil war, the Syrian civil war. And throughout it, we've returned again and again to a possibly unexpected motivation that underlies the Islamist actors in all of these conflicts—their belief in prophecies, in end times scenarios, their belief that the world is imminently going to come to an end and that they are playing an active and vital role in ushering in those end times. And they really do believe it, Aimen. They really do.
Aimen Dean They do. It's one of the most powerful motivators and also one of the most powerful tools of recruitment.
Thomas Small Tell me more.
Aimen Dean Okay. So, imagine, Thomas, that I come to you. You are a university geek. Well, you look like a geek anyway.
Thomas Small Thank you very much. Thank you.
Aimen Dean I come to you at university campus, and I tell you, "Thomas, you know, what, if I tell you that everything we're going through right now, every event, you know, major ones I'm talking about, that's happening so far since the 1950, '60s, and '70s and onward, it's all actually happening according to a divine plan. It's all been ordained long time ago. It's – it's all been foretold." If I tell you that, of course, I will just, you know, pick your interest, because, you see…
Thomas Small Well, if you told me that, amen. I'd probably – I'd probably back away slowly.
Aimen Dean Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, of course, basically, I'm not going to you saying this in the Jehovah Witnesses kind of way, you know. You know, of course, I'm coming to you from a very different angle here. I'm coming to you about what you want to do about it, you know. "Don't you feel there's so much injustice?" "Yes." "Well, don't you feel basically that the world is going to, you know – you know, to shit?" I mean, basically—.
Thomas Small Going to hell in a hand basket.
Aimen Dean Absolutely. "Yes," you will say. "Don't you feel basically that, you know, the world is so chaotic that it needs order?" You know? And you will say, "Yes. Okay." So, what kind of do you want? And if you're a Muslim, if you're a devout Muslim, I will say, "Do you believe of the authenticity of the Qur'an and the Hadith?
Thomas Small The Hadith, the sayings of the prophet, Muhammad. Yeah.
Aimen Dean Indeed. So, if you say, "Yes. Okay." Do you believe there were already hints of what's going to happen?" And you will say yes. "What if I tell you every major event was foretold?"
Thomas Small I suppose if I were a devout Muslim, I would already believe that. I would already believe that the events of history have been preordained within the mind of God.
Aimen Dean Perfect. Then, in that case, do you want to be one of God's instruments in fulfilling these events?
Thomas Small Does that require me strapping a bomb to my chest and blowing myself up? No. Thanks.
Aimen Dean Well, you know, maybe we could actually find another function for you.
Thomas Small Like building chemical weapons, for example, Aimen?
Aimen Dean Oh, dear. Oh, dear. Oh, dear. Guilty as charged. But, you see, you know—. But, you see, the – the issue here is that the journey towards radical Islam, and especially when we talk about radical Islamism, before it is violent, you have to go through the non-violent part of it, you see. You know, the journey through that requires considerable—.
Thomas Small Ideological training.
Aimen Dean Absolutely. So, for example, there has to be, first of all, identity crisis. And that can only happen when your faith in your nation state is eroded.
Thomas Small And that might happen easily in the Middle East, because nation states there are famously oppressive and corrupt,
Aimen Dean Actually, it's even more easy in Europe and North America. Yeah. Because the Muslim communities there are even more alienated from their own overall society.
Thomas Small But that's interesting, though. Are they actually alienated or are they being encouraged to feel themselves to be alienated by – by people who want to take advantage of that feeling?
Aimen Dean Of course, Thomas. Come on. There is no question. You know, you have clerics coming from other parts of the world, preaching to them that what's happening to the rest of society in terms of modernity progression and also the other things that are considered vices—.
Thomas Small Sexual license, drinking, gambling, marital breakdown, gangs, drugs.
Aimen Dean All of these are going to send them to hell. The clerics emphasise the hell factor here rather than heave. They emphasise, you know, fear of the eternal damnation rather than hope for the eternal reward or—.
Thomas Small But for – but – but for a pious Muslim, is it not true that – that all of these things are vices and that living in this fallen Western society is going to send them to hell?
Aimen Dean Well, you see, this is where, you know, the message is different. In Islam, you need to balance your message between love, fear, and hope. Love for the Lord, fear of His eternal damnation, but also, you know, hope for His eternal reward.
So, really the message is: "God is so forgiving, but he's also so vengeful, but he loves you." Really. That's it in one sentence.
Thomas Small That strikes me – that strikes me as a real as a – as a – as a genuine religious conflict. How is the ordinary believers supposed to navigate the tension between that triangle of – of – of negative emotion?
Aimen Dean Look, this has made Muslims a very special class of their own from the rest of humans.
Thomas Small Inside the West, especially.
Aimen Dean Exactly. Because of their conflicting relationship with their Western societies and the societies they have adopted.
Thomas Small Well, frankly, I can imagine. If I was a young Muslim today, a young Muslim male, perhaps, especially living in a deprived suburb of a great Western city, and I – I felt that I was called to follow the – follow the moral law, to be a good person and yet I look around and all I see everywhere is temptation, surely, it makes sense that, in the midst of the huge amount of temptation for the average Muslim inside Western societies, they would feel hopeless. They would think, "Well, I know it's up to me to avoid all these temptations. But, really, it's beyond my control. I just can't help it. It's everywhere. Sex, drugs, rock and roll. It's everywhere."
Aimen Dean But the problem with that is that the clergy, instead of preaching love and hope more than fear, they resorted to almost exclusively using fear as a weapon. They weaponised fear of the Lord and His damnation against the young in order to deter them from falling into temptation. So, that created a generation of guilty people walking around.
Thomas Small Only to deter from falling into temptation? Or was there an ulterior motive as well to this kind of fear-based preaching? They were trying to keep their community together.
Aimen Dean And under control. There – there is an element of control there, because, basically, look—. I will give you an example here. Positive message works well, but it means you don't exert control. You know, a negative message, you know, works also well in a sense that it keeps people under check, but actually what happen is it makes them afraid. You know, it makes them weak. It makes them even vulnerable. So, if I tell you, Thomas, "This is a glass of wine here. Now, I have two messages for you."
Thomas Small It's actually a glass of Diet Coke, sadly.
Aimen Dean Okay. Pretend. Okay. Just pretend. By a divine miracle, it just turned into wine.
Thomas Small Ooh, I like divine miracles that involve wine.
Aimen Dean So, imagine that this is a glass of wine here, yeah? If I tell you, Thomas, "If you drink this glass of wine…"
Thomas Small Yes.
Aimen Dean …"in the Day of Judgment, you will be drinking from a cup of molten lava, melting your inside, and you will be keep repeating it forever and ever and ever."
Thomas Small That doesn't sound pleasant at all.
Aimen Dean Okay. If I tell you, Thomas, "If you refrain from drinking this glass of wine, God will reward you in the paradise, with oceans of wine. Yours. Just yours. Wine that is nothing like you ever even conceived or dreamt about."
Thomas Small Imagine.
Aimen Dean So – so, when you—.
Thomas Small I might still choose to drink the wine here and now, to be perfectly honestly.
Aimen Dean Exactly. Exactly. But what I'm saying here is that—. You see, the two different messages here—one is positive and the other is negative. One that tells you that "You will be punished. You will go to hell. There is no hope for you. Bye." That's it. Goodbye. And the other one, basically, which tells you that, "No. You know, look, I mean, basically God is forgiving. God understands, you know. He – He's the one who created these temptations for you. But at the same time, if you fall into them, He will be forgiving. But if you don't, He will be rewarding."
Thomas Small Yes. I can see that that – that would be a much more—.
Aimen Dean Unfortunately, that's not happening. You see, this is not the message that is being preached from the vast majority of pulpits, not only in the Middle East, South Asia, and North Africa, but also in Europe and North America. So, why are we talking about temptation? Why are we talking about this fear and love and hope? It's because when you have people who feel guilty, when they are afraid of eternal punishment, what happen to them when other factors comes in—like identity crisis, humiliation, the feeling of anger, you know, over injustice, deprivation, alienation—when all of this come together, it is a toxic mixture, which makes people vulnerable to people who could recruit them.
I can go to anywhere—university campuses, prisons, mosques, even social gatherings. Gangs, even. I can go to them and say, "You want to be completely forgiven?" They will say yes. "You want to liberate your inner sadist and inner violent person, you know, to direct it at the right enemy and the right target?" They will say yes. "Do you want to feel empowerment? Because, basically, you are right now, you are under their boots. Do you want them to be under yours?" Yes. "Well, join the jihad. It's a one-way ticket to heaven while you exactly strike a blow for your face and, at the same time, empower your own nation."
Thomas Small So, in the Middle East itself, as you've told us already, there's a civil war raging between, on the one hand, the forces of radical Islamism that seek to undermine the established nation states of the Middle East and re-establish the caliphate. On the other side, you have those nation states themselves, which seek not to be undermined and have a different vision of – of the world. But, of course, those states are also full of pious Muslims. So, how do the Muslims on the other side of the civil war reconcile themselves to their religion and the current geopolitical order, which their Muslim brothers on the other side of that divide are saying is an evil world order. How do the other Muslims reconcile themselves to it? How do you reconcile yourself to it?
Aimen Dean I spent six years of my life in four different war zones. You know, in the – in the – in the Bosnian conflict, in the Caucuses, in Afghanistan and in the southern Philippines. All were civil wars. All were the institutions of the nation state collapsed. And you see clearly what could happen if the nation state collapsed.
Thomas Small Total chaos.
Aimen Dean Total chaos. You see, you know, imagine everything that you take for granted—an ATM out in the street full of cash, a safe street, you know, traffic lights working, a gym you go to, a school you go to, a transport system that takes you from wherever you go to wherever you want to go to.
Thomas Small A hospital, a grocery store full of food.
Aimen Dean A fire brigade, police squad that will come and rescue you if you go, you know, into trouble. So, all of these will disappear the moment the nation state collapses. And what will replace them? Irregular militias who come together under fear and under stress in order to safeguard their neighbourhoods. And – and this is basically where injustices happen, where gangs takeover, where warlords takeover, where corruption is – is rife.
Thomas Small Okay. Fine. You can appeal to people's self-interest and say, "Support the nation state." But they're still Muslims. Don't they believe in these prophecies as well? Don't they believe in the whole world view that – that says there must be a caliphate, the caliphate is absolutely vital to God's plan on earth?
Aimen Dean I believe that the majority are not conflicted, and for a very good reason. If you look closely at the prophecies—. And this is really important. I'm not going to enter too many details not to confuse the listener. But there is a set of prophecies, roughly about eight Hadith texts. You know, they are referred to as the prophecies of the Black Banners.
Thomas Small The prophecies of the Black Banners. Sounds very romantic.
Aimen Dean Sounds more ominous, actually. So, this set of prophecies were the bedrock, the building block off all of al-Qaeda's and ISIS' eschatological theology, how they are going to conquer the Middle East and beyond, and usher in the end of times and bring in about the, you know, about the era of the Mahdi. So, the prophecies, in general—. Basically, there are eight of them together, and they are almost the same wording, which says that there will be an army of the Black Banners rising from Khorasan, which they believe to be Afghanistan, even though it's mostly in Iran.
Thomas Small Yeah. Oh, the – the prophecy of the Black Banners. How does that prophecy go?
Aimen Dean Well, it says [foreign language], which means that the army of the Black Banners, at the end of time, will arise out of Khorasan and they will raise their banner over Jerusalem.
Thomas Small That's the prophecy?
Aimen Dean Indeed. So, why do you think that the flags of al-Qaeda, ISIS, al-Shabaab, and many other Islamist groups are black? Because they believe that they were the armies of the Black Banners rising – rising out of Khorasan and bringing it.
Thomas Small [crosstalk].
Aimen Dean Even Osama bin Laden, if you remember in the first podcast when we talked about 9/11, he actually, you know, talked about the armies of the Black Banners, liberating, you know, Jerusalem, liberating, you know, the Arabian Peninsula, bringing about change and restoring the caliphate, because he believed that – that was the vanguard of that army of the Black Banners. So, an entire theology, an entire generation drank that Kool-Aid called, you know, the Black Banners and the prophecies of the Black Banners.
Thomas Small This whole perspective of the imminent end of the world, it's so hard, I think, for most Westerners today, especially of the non-religious, secularist mentality, to – to even comprehend what this might be like. mean, some people might remember, just before the turn of the millennium, when the Y2K threat hung over the world and everyone thought, as soon as the clock struck twelve on January 1st, 2000, no computers would work and everything would – would go back to how it was in the dark ages.
Aimen Dean Planes will fall from the sky.
Thomas Small Planes will fall from the sky. The end of the world. And – and, sometimes, maybe even more recently, the most extreme forms of – of climate change catastrophism, the sense that within two years, we're all going to be under.
It is something inside the human spirit. At least some human beings seem to be obsessed with the idea that the end is near. And in the case of the groups we're talking about, they very much have this spirit.
Aimen Dean Yeah. You know, it's poisoned their minds. You see, it's – it's very intoxicating, unfortunately. So, the prophecies, it's all a lie. It's all one big con from history. How?
Thomas Small I want to give it – I want to give it a stab. Can I give it a stab?
Aimen Dean Yeah.
Thomas Small I think I know why.
Aimen Dean Tell me.
Thomas Small If you remember dear listener, I think in the third podcast or perhaps the fourth, we talked about the Umayyad Dynasty, the first great, world-straddling Muslim dynasty. It lasted roughly a hundred fifty years.
Aimen Dean No. Ninety years.
Thomas Small Really?
Aimen Dean Yeah. From—. Yeah. They – they – they [unintelligible] the year of 750 AD, but they estab- – were established in the year 661 AD.
Thomas Small God. Edit this out. Aimen showing me up.
It lasted about ninety years. As that dynasty was reaching its end, a new upstart dynasty came from Khorasan, in northeast Iran, and they needed to prepare the way for their takeover of that dynasty by sowing the seeds of prophecy. They raised Black Banners, they swept out of Khorasan, they defeated the Umayyads, and established the Abbasid Caliphate.
Aimen Dean And, in fact, when I started looking at the Hadith narrations, every last person of the narrations, of this Hadith, in other words, the first person to speak of this Hadith and build a narration chain for it, you know, going back to the prophet, every single one of them, of the eight individuals, existed in towns where the Abbasid call and the Abbasid movement was at its speak.
Thomas Small So, basically, radical Muslims today are held in thrall to a bit of eighth century political propaganda.
Aimen Dean And a theological fabrication.
Thomas Small My goodness. So, let's – let's talk about one such group now. They've recently raised the Black Banners and infamously made themselves known around the world, ISIS. Tell me, specifically in ISIS's worldview, what they thought, in terms of the prophecies, was going to happen in Syria.
Aimen Dean They thought that, in Syria, the armies of the crusaders—. They call them the Romans.
Thomas Small Yes. They called them the Romans. It's actually quite flattering for us Westerners that we're – we're with a Roman emperors. As if – as if they imagine we're walking around in togas, laurel leaves on our heads, quoting Cicero.
Aimen Dean So, you see it's because of the fact that they were always referred to, you know, during the time and the era of the prophet Muhammad as the Romans. Because you see, you know, the Byzantine empire wasn't called the Byzantine empire until very, you know, until actually – until the seventeenth or eighteenth century. Before that—.
Thomas Small In fact, it was the Roman empire. In the West…
Aimen Dean Yeah.
Thomas Small …we say the Roman empire fell in 476. But actually that is not true. Another lie, a scurrilous life history.
Aimen Dean Indeed.
Thomas Small The Roman empire continued until 1453 when the – when the Muslims finally snuffed it out. Nothing's ever been the same, Aimen.
Aimen Dean So, they believe that the armies of the Europeans, the Romans, you know, will come and sweep in into Syria, and there will be this big battle in the fields of Dabiq, you know, a – a small town near Aleppo, where, you know, the fate of Islam will be decided and that it will – it will usher in the return of the Mahdi and the era of the righteous caliphate being restored, where they will sweep in to rest of Iraq, to Jordan, to Israel, to Saudi Arabia, to Egypt, and—.
Not everyone. Of course, basically, it's, you know—. Sometime, if you hear that, you know, you are justified in asking them, you know. "Guys, whatever you're smoking, get a refund."
Thomas Small You say that, but – but if I was a young ISIS fighter, there – there – there are times in the last three years when you might have really thought it was going to happen. Because, in fact, fierce fighting did go on within the vicinity of Dabiq, in – in northern Syria.
Aimen Dean Indeed.
Thomas Small It did seem at times that it was all coming true. The Russians were intervening. The Americans were always on the verge of intervening. They must have felt great expectation. "It's happening. It's happening."
Aimen Dean And guess what? It basically just went completely against them. And why? Because, first of all, the prophecy of Dabiq is of questionable authenticity, to begin with. So, again, we come back into the fact that they have built their entire ideology over extremely shay grounds.
Thomas Small Well, nonetheless, ISIS was extremely powerful at one point and—.
Aimen Dean And appealing.
Thomas Small And appealing. It—. Many, many foreign fighters, this – even in the West, they responded to ISIS's call. What does that say about the War on Terror? How is it possible seventeen years after 9/11 that young Muslims in the West and even as far afield as China are responding to these prophetic calls? Has the War on Terror achieved nothing of convincing young Muslims to reject radical jihadism?
Aimen Dean The War on Terror already was fundamentally flawed from the beginning. It is a noble concept. It is actually something that needs to be done, except the way it was executed was completely and utterly shambolic.
Thomas Small But apart from the invasion of Iraq, what else did the War on Terror get wrong?
Aimen Dean It went away off track completely, because they started to focus on killing leaders and were obsessed with, you know, leaders. So, they were putting $25 million on bin Laden's head, $25 million on al-Zawahiri's head, $5 million on this guy's head. But they did not spend that money, actually, on strengthening the institutions of the nation states all over the Muslim world in a way that actually will tell people that the nation state is the only guarantor of their safety, security, stability, prosperity, education, and everything else.
Thomas Small But we're talking not only about Muslim fighters from the Muslim world. We're talking about Muslim fighters from outside the Muslim world. Let's take, for example, a very – a little-known community, very large, that lives in western China, the Uyghurs. Now, the Uyghurs are one of the many peoples that have participated in the Syrian civil war, are a ethnically-mixed Turkic, Indo-European population in western China. They speak a Turkic language. They are Sunni Muslims, mainly.
Aimen Dean Sufis, mostly.
Thomas Small So, yes. Traditionally, they practice the more mystically inclined Sufi part of a – branch of Islam, although, more recently, I think, they have become rather Salifised. Their radicalism is on the increase there.
Aimen Dean Yeah.
Thomas Small The Chinese state has felt threatened by their efforts to organise as a community and – and advocate for autonomy. There's a separatist movement there. A jihadist movement there indeed. In recent years, the – the Chinese state has responded very oppressively to their demands for autonomy. I think, now, there are over a million Uyghurs in detention centres across the province of Xinjiang, in the west where they are located.
Aimen Dean Although the Chinese will dispute the word "detention" and call it "re-education camps. But—.
Thomas Small Oh, re-education camps.
Aimen Dean Yeah.
Thomas Small Well, we know what Maoists mean when they say "re-education camps." Tell us something about the Uyghurs and how they ended up in Syria, alongside fighters from Wales and from France and from Germany.
Aimen Dean You see, the Uyghurs are rather, like, you know, a class of their own. You know, it's—. you know, it's – it's – it's a very interesting phenomenon and how you have people who are from China, Chinese citizens forming an army.
Thomas Small Chinese citizens, but ethnically not Chinese.
Aimen Dean They are not ethnically Chinese, but then, China encompass fifty-six ethnicities, according to official figures. In fact, take any Chinese currency—. I mean, you know, for the listener, if you go, you know, to any money exchange, you know, outlet and you buy a Chinese currency, just look at it. You will find that there are four scripts for writings, basically, on the Chinese currency. The first one is, of course, the Chinese characters. Then, you have Mongolian characters. Then, you have Tibetan characters. And then, you have Uyghur characters. So, they are recognised, basically. Their – their writing style is recognised as one of the four fundamental scripts in China.
Thomas Small Their writing style is recognised, but they, as a community, have been subject to gross violations of their human rights in recent decades.
Aimen Dean Of course. Along with the Tibetans and many other—. And even the questions of China.
Thomas Small You say "of course." But how is that going to instil, in these communities, faith in the nation state? The nation state that is oppressing them.
Aimen Dean Yes. While the Tibetans, who are Buddhists, decided basically to embark on overwhelmingly peaceful resistance and disobedience against the Chinese authorities, the Uyghurs decided that, maybe, a violent uprising or at least a violent campaign against the Chinese authorities and Chinese interests abroad could be the way forward.
Thomas Small So, you say the Buddhists adopted a pacifist attitude towards their oppression. And, once again, Muslims rushed to – to take up arms and start killing.
Aimen Dean Exactly.
Thomas Small Why are they always killing?
Aimen Dean So, the Uyghurs are actually forcing us to ask ourselves a question here: Is Islam inherently violent?
Thomas Small And I think this is a very important question, especially for our listeners in the West, because there is a lot of anxiety within people about returning jihadist fighters to their – their homelands in the West. Are we supposed to be afraid of them?
Aimen Dean So, if we look at the Uyghurs, for example, here, they realise, basically, that next door to them in Afghanistan, there is a war region, and that war is based on Islamic theology, which is the theology of jihad. They saw, in jihad, a possible path to salvation, to way in which they can pressure the Chinese government. Remember, the estimates now that there are a four-thousand-strong Uyghurs fighters, you know, in terms of their numbers.
Thomas Small Four thousand fighters. That doesn't sound like that many, especially, you know – you know, to the Chinese. There's one-point-three billion Chinese citizens or something like that.
Aimen Dean Still, remember, al-Qaeda were only four hundred 400 people only when they carried out 9/11. So, we need to see not so much the numbers, but their potential impact. And, of course, the Chinese are afraid, because, for them, Xinjiang province, which is where the Uyghurs come from—.
Thomas Small Xinjiang province in the West?
Aimen Dean Yes. In the past, it used to be the backdoor, but now it is a front door.
Thomas Small The new Silk Road initiative…
Aimen Dean Exactly.
Thomas Small …where the Chinese are attempting to recreate the ancient Silk Road to circumvent the [sea lane] shipping route, so that they can transfer their goods over land through Central Asia and Russia, all the way to Europe.
Aimen Dean Absolutely. Not just only that, but also then southwest, towards Pakistan and into the port of Gwadar, on the warm waters of the Arabian Sea. So, you, the war in Syria raging generated thousands upon thousands of Uyghurs who were attracted to that conflict because they wanted to get military training and also the experience in order to go back to China and start an armed uprising there.
That brings us back to the question: Is Islam inherently violent? Both yes and no. Basically, Islam gives you the option, whether you opt for peace or for war. Both of them.
Thomas Small Based in certain conditions, I suppose.
Aimen Dean Absolutely. So, now, why—. We come back full circle here? Why jihadists and Islamic fundamentalists want to undermine the nation state, especially at this time, in this time of history? Because, in Islam, it is absolutely inherent that the use of violence and the deployment of violence is only the prerogative of the nation state, is only the prerogative of the Imam as the prophet used to say. So, if we say, if they believe in the legitimacy of the nation state, then only the nation states can deploy violence or jihad. Only them can wield weapons and use violence for political means.
Thomas Small So, you're saying they want to wield violence. And in order to do so, legitimately, they have to disavow the nation state. They have to say the nation state is not legitimate. It cannot legitimately claim a monopoly in violence.
Aimen Dean And that's why when they undermine the legitimacy of their nation states, whether it is Saudi Arabia or Egypt or Turkey or Morocco or whether it is the UK or France or Canada or Australia, what they do here is that they take away the legitimacy of the nation state, which means that they no longer believe that the nation state is capable of deploying violence, deploying jihad to protect Islam. Therefore, it has now fallen upon groups and individuals to carry out that mission, to carry out that task.
So, you see here, when you say Islam is inherently violent, yes, it is inherently violent, but the violence is under checks and balances of the nation state. Therefore, it doesn't appear to be so for a long diamond history. Because it was always the prerogative of the leader of the state or the sheiks of the tribe or the prince of the principality or the king of the kingdom. It's always been like this.
But now, with the advent of the modern nation state, this is where things started to diverge. People wanted to legitimise that nation state in order for them to carry out—. Basically to deploy violence on their own initiative.
Thomas Small But people's concerns about Islam being somehow inherently violent aren't only to do with jihad. For example, one hears, you know, remarkably consistently a story like this, a cartoonist in Denmark draws a scurrilous cartoon of the prophet Muhammad. And, suddenly, a hundred Muslims in Egypt rise up, kill forty nuns and burn down their nunnery. How are people supposed to understand that it happens with worry and consistency? There does seem to be a switch that you can switch on, and the Muslims will just kill people. I mean, I – I put it bluntly to you, Aimen…
Aimen Dean Yeah.
Thomas Small …because I think a lot of people are concerned about what seems to be this prevalence of violence within – within Muslims.
Aimen Dean And, in fact, the funny thing—. Well, not so funny, actually. It's more like sad thing, is that they are going against the Islamic principle of ignoring falsehood. You see, the caliph Omar ibn al-Khattab, who was the father-in-law of the prophet Muhammed, who was the second caliph, the second successor, truly the – the nation builder of Islam—. He's the one who built the nation of Islam as a nation, as a nation state.
Thomas Small A political entity.
Aimen Dean A political entity with, you know, ministries and departments and made it—. You know, he created the Muslim civil service.
Thomas Small Taxation and—.
Aimen Dean Yeah. So, he created Muslim civil service. And so, he said that what you need to do when you hear something false and provocative is you kill it by ignoring it for if you start to blab about it exactly. This is what he said. "Blab." [foreign language] n an Arabic. "For you—. If you start to blab about it, your enemies will use it against you."
Thomas Small Okay. Fine. But—.
Aimen Dean That's what he said.
Thomas Small But isn't that just another version of the fact that when Muslims do something that is distasteful, it's easy to say, "Well, they're not really practicing Islam. That's not really Islam." But where does that leave us?
Aimen Dean Well, again, we come back to the fact that, you know, over the last fifty years, so many articles of the faith that shouldn't have been undermined has been undermined. You know, suicide has always been, you know, considered to be completely forbidden. So, fourteen hundred years of theology turned upside down with this legitimising, this collective madness of legitimising suicide bombing. So, suddenly an absolute article of the faith that suicide is forbidden, no exceptions, has been thrown out to the window. That jihad, the military jihad, which was always the prerogative of the nation state and its leaders, also has been thrown out of the window open [crosstalk].
Thomas Small Now, anyone can wage jihad.
Aimen Dean Exactly. The execution of people by beheading from the front of the neck, in other words, as – as animals are slaughtered, was never part of Islam ever. Ever. There hasn't been any recorded instance of it. Usually, you know, the beheading happened by a swift, you know, sharp strike to the back of the head. Like a guillotine, for example. Swift, unlike this barbaric, you know, animal-like slaughter [crosstalk].
Thomas Small Which I see ISIS carried out.
Aimen Dean Exactly. This has never happened before. It's only now in the last fifty years, we start to see it, you know, emerge. This belief in prophecies, that, you know, big things are about to happen and, therefore, we have to take up arms, it never happened before. This undermining of legitimate leaders, you know, and kings and princes and sheiks, you know, that we see all over the Muslim world, especially in the Middle East, it never happened before. We never have—. We never seen it in this intensity.
So, there is crisis within Islam, you know. It's almost as if Islam is becoming unhinged, you know, because of the fact that it's find itself in a very foreign, alien place and cannot, you know, and feeling bewildered and disoriented. And it's still not able to find this place in the modern world.
Thomas Small So, what's the solution then? I mean, maybe the solution is just let's stamp out Islam. No more Islam. Islam is a problem.
Aimen Dean Oh, well. No one can do that. That's impossible. I know you – you have almost two billion people. What do you do with them? And plus, the vast majority are kind, decent, good people.
Thomas Small That’s true.
Aimen Dean You experienced that yourself.
Thomas Small Of course. Of course. So, again, what we do about it. What is the great solution here? Well, the great solution is, again, we confront them with the absolute stock choice, either the nation state or the abyss of the absolute chaos. That's it. There is no other choice.
If they want to go with the nation state, then this is where the cure start. Where we start to take them on the journey towards modernity, you know, and – and strengthen their belief in the nation state. And the many people do. I mean, basically, there are many countries within the Muslim world who have done quite well. And, in fact, we need to study their experience. Take a country like Oman.
Thomas Small Oman.
Aimen Dean Yeah. It's in the Arabian Peninsula. It is ultra conservative as conservative, as it could be, although less than Saudi Arabia, and it has ancient history. It's deeply Muslim. And yet, how many people from Oman went to join ISIS?
Thomas Small I don't know.
Aimen Dean None.
Thomas Small But isn't that because the Omanis actually practice a very strange and fringe form of – of Islam called Ibadism. Very few other—. Very few Muslims are Ibadi Muslims. So, perhaps, they just don't feel called to join their Sunni or Shia brethren in – in – in Syria.
Aimen Dean Actually, forty per cent of Oman are Sunnis. And still—. And even the Ibadis are considered Sunnis, anyway.
Thomas Small So, why – why didn't Oman send foreign fighters to Syria and elsewhere?
Aimen Dean Not only that, actually. How many people from al-Qaeda?
Thomas Small [crosstalk].
Aimen Dean Only one, and he had mental issues, I remember. So, maybe he just wondered there, you know, basically aimlessly. So, why is that? You know, we come back to the fact that there are societies that seems to have been immune, you know, to the scourge of extremism. And I think it's because of the fact that they were comfortable with the nation state institutions, and that's what Oman is. Oman, there is a lot of loyalty towards the nation state.
The UAE, for example, which has about, you know, one-point-five million inhabitants who are citizens, actually, how many of them joined ISIS or al-Qaeda? You know, in total, there are about fourteen throughout its history. Only fourteen people. And that is very low percentage.
Again, it's the comfort with the nation state and its institutions. You know, the fact that they believe in their leaders, they believe in their nation state, even though it's not democratic—Oman is not democratic—but there is something about it, about both countries, which meant that they were comfortable with the fact that they have nation states that protect them and give them, you know, the ability to lead a good and decent life.
But now, we look at, you know, the percentages from other countries. For example, in Saudi Arabia, one hundred and forty-five out of a million joined ISIS.
Thomas Small That doesn't sound like a huge number to me.
Aimen Dean But still. You know, one hundred and forty-five. In the UAE, basically, you know, it's about eight per million. In Kuwait. You know, the estimates were about between forty-five to forty-seven per million. In Saudi Arabia, as I said, one hundred and forty-five per million. In Tunisia, which is the complete opposite of Saudi Arabia, it lived under secular rule, you know, extreme secularism [crosstalk].
Thomas Small And it's democracy.
Aimen Dean And it's a democracy. You know, it's only, like, you know, in the last seven, eight years it was a democracy. But, nonetheless, the percentage is two hundred and six per million. So, it's even greater than Saudi Arabia. So, it's not necessarily that Saudi school curriculums produce so many radicals. But, you know, you can see, like, in, I mean, Tunisia produced two hundred and six per million.
If you look at the UK, it's three hundred and fifty-four per million, because we are not doing the entire population, only adjusting the numbers of those who joined ISIS from within the Muslim population here. So, if we only take the Muslim population, really, three hundred fifty-four per million, more than twice the average Saudi. So, can you imagine here, that if you are a British Muslim, you are twice more than twice likely to join ISIS?
And, in France, it is three hundred and eighty-four per million.
Thomas Small Even more – even more than Britain?
Aimen Dean And it's the same percentage in Germany. And then, we go to Belgium, which is even the worst one, seven hundred and twenty-two per million.
Thomas Small So, these figures are – are stark, that in the West, in Western countries, the – the – the likelihood of – of Muslims being radicalised is actually higher than in Muslim countries. And that's been the case, really, from the beginning of the War on Terror era, when – when Muslims, let's say, who had spent a bit of time in the West were much likelier to be radicalised than – than – than not. Like Mohammed Atta, the leader of the 9/11 plot, who had spent time studying in Germany. Even further back when the godfather of all radical ideologues, Sayyid Qutb, spent years in Colorado, in the United States, studying and returned home with a burning desire to destroy everything American.
So, it is something about the West. But does this mean that we, in the West, should be particularly concerned? Are the foreign fighters who left the West to fight in the battlefields of Middle – of – of the Middle East going to come back, group, gather, and to conspire to undermine our nation states. Should we be concerned?
Aimen Dean You cannot, you know, basically, just ignore the fact that these people are going to come back, not just only traumatised by the war. The fact that they have themselves committed acts of, you know, terrorism and acts of violence in these wars. They will come back and, most likely, they will conspire to undermine the nation state by either recruiting more people, sending more people abroad, because they will have this kind of what they call it in, you know, in urban settings, street credit.
Thomas Small But some listeners would say this is just right-wing paranoia. Actually, these are young misunderstood people. We can easily – we can easily reintegrate them into society. We can enrol them in de-radicalisation programs. We don't need to punish them. We should welcome them back and make them feel like they belong.
Aimen Dean I know that what I'm going to say here is a little bit controversial, a little bit heartless, it might seem, but if you make up your mind, if you decide to join a group like that and you are not willing whatsoever to abandon their principle, to renounce the principles, to renounce their ideology and theology, if, you know, if you are not willing to cooperate with your security services and the police and the government when you return, I think you shouldn't return then.
Thomas Small You shouldn't return or you shouldn't be allowed to return?
Aimen Dean You shouldn't be allowed to return even. I think Theresa May did the right thing when she started [crosstalk].
Thomas Small Theresa May, the prime minister of the United Kingdom, who used to be the home secretary for many years?
Aimen Dean Yeah. I think she did the right thing by stripping those who are dual nationals of their British citizenship once they – they are proven to be fighting alongside ISIS or al-Qaeda abroad. Because apart from the fact that they're committing treason, because these groups are seeking to undermine the nation state, including the United Kingdom nation state, also the same time, she's trying to prevent them from coming back. Because once they come back, they will do far more harm than good. In fact, what good they will do, to begin with?
Thomas Small So, you think these people can't be rehabilitated? I mean, we – we read about a new pilot scheme in Denmark where an entire town has been given over to jihadist rehabilitation. It's not—. They don't live under prison conditions. They live in a proper town. They are convinced of the errors of their ways. And in the Middle East as well, Saudi Arabia has a very celebrated rehabilitation program. Even in Nigeria, the Nigerian government has sponsored a – a rehabilitation program for Boko Haram fighters, though, I think, in that case, especially, the recidivism rate is quite high. But can these young men not be rehabilitated? And, actually, young women now, too.
Aimen Dean You need to divide them into different categories, from the hopeless to the hopeful and everything in between. And this can be only assessed on individual-by-individual cases. Seriously. Because you have those who are leaders and those who were followers. Those who are educated, those who are not educated and everything in between. You know, we're dealing with humans here.
Thomas Small So, some people can be rehabilitated. You do hold that to be a possibility.
Aimen Dean Yes. But a minority. I still basically am a bit sceptical. I would say, basically, a minority can be rehabilitated, especially if they are, as, you know, as I was in the past, basically, and annoyingly inquisitive and a free thinker. You know, this is what needs to happen. You spot them. You see, basically, that there are people who think or themselves, who are, you know, willing to question what they've done. These are the people you should target. Those who stubbornly, stubbornly hold on to the animosity towards every society on earth, that's who you should isolate. I would accept individuals who want to come back if they just go and walk in into the British embassy in Ankara or in Nairobi or in Islamabad and declare, "I'm a walk-in. That's it. I want to renounce the group and everything that stands for." Whether it's al-Qaeda or ISIS or Taliban or al-Shabaab or whatever. If they do that, then that is actually a true willingness to abandon that path.
Thomas Small And you can speak from experience here, because in a way, that's precisely what you did way back in 1998, when you held up your hand and said, "My bad. I don't want any more of this."
But this hard-line view you take towards foreign fighters, could you not be accused of a certain amount of hypocrisy? Because here you are, an utterly reformed former jihadist. You worked for almost a decade inside the Western security services, protecting those states from the – the threat of – of Islamism. If people had been adopted such a hard-line view towards you, you might have been the one forever outcast from society.
Aimen Dean You know, when you come willingly and say that "I've been part of this movement for set amount of years, and I'm willing to cooperate fully and to actually expose every bit of information that I have, in fact, basically I'm willing even to work against it," it's different. Completely different. People will not, you know, say, "Oh, no. We don't want anything." No one will say that. You know, they will be out of their minds if they do that, because you come and you bring with you a wealth of intelligence, you know, that needed in order to safeguard societies and nation states.
So, in my case, I spent four years inside the jihadist movement. For every year I spent as a jihadist, I spent two years as a double agent.
Thomas Small Do you feel that those eight years you spent as a double agent inside al-Qaeda earned you your atonement? Do you feel that you atoned for your sins?
Aimen Dean Of course. I think four years would have been more than enough, I think, in my opinion, because I rest my life, you know, constantly for that. I'm still to this day, actually, you know, a target of a fatwā.
Thomas Small Why? Why is that? How is it that you, in the end, stopped being a double agent for al-Qaeda? Why aren't you still working for MI6, helping to destroy radical jihad from within?
Aimen Dean Alas, Thomas. It's your own country?
Thomas Small Oh.
Aimen Dean The United States…
Thomas Small The great Satan, once again.
Aimen Dean …that ruined it completely.
Thomas Small What happened?
Aimen Dean Well, Thomas, I was actually, you know, for the first time in my life, for the first time ever, I was going on a holiday just as a normal human being.
Thomas Small So, when is this? When – when did this happen?
Aimen Dean This was June of 2006,
Thomas Small June of 006. All right. So, the Iraq War is absolutely at its a fever pitch of sectarian bloodletting. You could have—. You – you were probably working overtime undermining terrorist operations and cells. And then, you decide, "Well, I'll go on a holiday." And then, what happened?
Aimen Dean So, I was so overwhelmed by everything. You know, there were so many cells to uncover and, you know, threads, you know, basically identified and plots by terrorist thwarted. So, I thought, "Okay." You know? "Look, I've earned my holiday." So, I remember the service basically telling me, "Okay. Find. [unintelligible]. Where do you want to go?" Well, Paris. I'd never seen Paris. I would like to go to Paris. I spent four days there. You know, I'm just going to tour everything. You know, the Eiffel Tower, the River Seine boat, you know, Notre Dame Cathedral, the Louvre. I mean, everything that—.
Thomas Small It says so much about you, Aimen, that after eight years as a double agent inside al-Qaeda, instead of going to a beach somewhere and relaxing, you wanted to plunge yourself into the cultural wonders of Paris.
Aimen Dean Absolutely. So, there I am in the middle of a tour about in Paris, you know, in the second day of my holiday.
Thomas Small So, you're – you're sailing at the Seine. You're looking at Notre Dame, the lovely nineteenth century townhouses. You're thinking, "Nothing can get better than this. This is the apex of – of relaxation." And you get a phone call.
Aimen Dean It was a text message, actually.
Thomas Small Oh, a text message. You get a text message.
Aimen Dean So, I got a text message and I look, and it says basically—. You know, it is from a associate of mine, from within al-Qaeda based in the Gulf, and he sent me a text message and he says, "What the hell is this? Go and read the Time magazine website." So—.
Thomas Small What did you think?
Aimen Dean I thought, "Well, that's a bit cryptic." Maybe like, you know, he's angry at, you know, some American mishap or something like that or they have, you know, bombed some civilians in Fallujah or Ramadi. Whatever. So, I—.
Thomas Small So, you didn’t—. That text didn't seem threatening to you.
Aimen Dean Yeah. But nonetheless, I thought, "Okay." I went to an internet café. And as soon as I went into the Time magazine website, it says there, "A brilliant spy within al-Qaeda reveal that there was a chemical attack plot against the New York subway."
Thomas Small Well, I remember that – that attack plot. There was—. It was infamous. They were going to release some kind of – some kind of gas nerve agent on the New York subway system and potentially kill hundreds of people.
Aimen Dean Yeah. It was actually blood agent. But nonetheless, you know, these are just technical terms. So, you know—. So, basically, I was looking at it, and then it talks about this brilliant spy inside al-Qaeda who actually stopped an attack against the US Fifth Fleet, you know, sailors who identified leaders of al-Qaeda in Saudi Arabia and identified the external head of operations for al-Qaeda, Hamza Rabia, and blah blah blah blah. Whatever.
Thomas Small At what point did you think, "Oh, my God. They're talking about me. I'm that brilliant spy?"
Aimen Dean Yeah. I was actually reading, and I felt, basically, my heart sinking all the way to my feet. And, you know—. And immediately, you know—. And when – when – when I started reading, basically, even more—. Because, basically, that article was, you know, foreshadowing, a book that's going to be released the week after in the US. It was written by Ron Suskind, a Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist. He got the league from high up in the American command chain.
Thomas Small What was the name of the book?
Aimen Dean The One Percent Doctrine.
Thomas Small The One Percent Doctrine. Yes, I've read it. It's quite a good book.
Aimen Dean Well, forty-six pages of that book is devoted to me, actually.
Thomas Small Oh, wow.
Aimen Dean Yeah.
Thomas Small Aimen, oh, my goodness. I'll have to get you to sign my copy.
Aimen Dean No. You—. I will sign my book to you, not that, you know, journalist's book. But nonetheless, he, you know, decided to give me a name. And out of the four thousand different names and Arabic for boys, he decided to go with my real name.
Thomas Small Did he know he was revealing your real name or is this just sheer chance?
Aimen Dean Oh, well, sheer chance. Like, what? One in four thousand chance, basically, that he decided that to give me a name, and that name happened to be my name.
Thomas Small Ali?
Aimen Dean Yes. So, I was so angry. I mean, I, you know, I just picked up the phone. And I—. Even though it was Sunday, I phoned my handlers in a back in London, and I told them, "Go and read it." And then, five minutes later, I received a phone call, saying to me, "On the first train back to London now."
Thomas Small They realised your cover was blown.
Aimen Dean Yeah.
Thomas Small So, how had this journalist found out that you were a brilliant spy inside al-Qaeda?
Aimen Dean Well, we suspected at that time, and still to this day, that the leak came from the office of the then vice-president, Dick Cheney,
Thomas Small Oh, Dick Cheney. Gosh, is there no end to your villainy?
Aimen Dean Yeah. What a dick, huh?
Thomas Small Well, it could be worse. He could have – he could have shot you in the face.
Aimen Dean Shot me in the face.
Thomas Small And that's how he treats his friends. Imagine how he treats his enemies.
Aimen Dean Indeed. So, that's why my spying days came, you know, to an end. It's because I couldn't do it anymore.
Thomas Small So, you got on the first train back to London. You arrive. Your MI6 handler meets you. And what happens? They say, "Sorry, buddy. Your time's up. You got to leave."
Aimen Dean Well, you know, no more or less, basically, we have to change your apartment now, you know. Basically, so, you can't go to your apartment. I mean, someone else will go now and clear your stuff from there. We will have to take you to another city at the moment in order to, you know, think about your future.
And, of course, basically, I mean, it was full blown crisis.
Thomas Small And how did you feel?
Aimen Dean Well, I – I felt betrayed. I felt basically that there was no need for this.
Thomas Small And when did it become clear to you that al-Qaeda did realise that you had, for all those years, been a double agent, betraying them from inside? They must have considered you a friend, a comrade in arms, a fellow struggle. How did they react?
Aimen Dean Actually, what happened is I immediately, you know, change the phone numbers, closed the email accounts. And that's it. Basically, drifted away from them to the point basically where they were asking my family members even, sometime, you know, "How can we get a hold of him?" And then—.
Thomas Small And did you tell the family, your family, "Don't tell them. Don't tell them?"
Aimen Dean "Don’t tell anyone. Basically, I'm drifting away." In fact, my family was so happy. They think, basically, that I left al-Qaeda. They didn't know, basically, I was a spy, you see. So, I told them, "Well, you know, I want to just go on the, you know, straight and narrow now, basically. I don't want to be involved with these people anymore, you know? So, could you help me with that?" And they said yes.
Thomas Small So, you never heard from al-Qaeda directly. But you did know that, quite quickly after your cover was blown, that a fatwā and Islamic ruling was released authorising your – your immediate execution.
Aimen Dean And ironically, the people who intercepted that fatwā when it was going from northern Pakistan all the way to Bahrain and Saudi Arabia and Kuwait and other places in the Gulf War I used to – I used to frequent, the ones who were intercepted that's where the Americans. So, they won the British, you know. And, of course, the services gave me a quick warning that, "Well, just to let, you know, that a fatwā has been issued."
Thomas Small How did this fatwā play out? I mean, did they send a kind of wanted dead or alive poster around all the cells across the world, saying, "If you see Aimen Dean, you kill him dead in the street?"
Aimen Dean No. The fatwā, basically, was a little bit milder than that. You know, it basically says that "We have determined that this person"— me, Aimen Dean, although they gave me another name, of course, basically, in that fatwā—"we have determined through a tribunal, an evidence-based tribunal"—yes, it was written like this—"that he betrayed the cause and that he, you know, left the fold of Islam." So, basically, they declared me [unintelligible], which means apostate.
Thomas Small An apostate. And apostates in Islam can be killed.
Aimen Dean Yeah. And have aided the infidels. You know, al-kafir as they call them, in their war efforts against Islam. And therefore, if given the chance, if given the chance, then whoever can do it, then they should kill me.
Thomas Small For ten years, then you have had a fatwā. You've had this target on your back. Have you ever come close to being executed by al-Qaeda?
Aimen Dean Well, I wouldn't say executed or something like that. There was—.
Thomas Small Assassinated, then.
Aimen Dean Yes. There was an attempt in 2009. Someone wanted to push me either in front of a train and then later in front of a bus, basically.
Thomas Small How do you know? How do you know? What happened?
Aimen Dean Because – because he was trying to follow me in the underground, you know. He knew me. He knew me who I was. And it was a chance encounter completely. And the look on his face was murderous. So, I had to evade him in order to escape. And I was able to escape him.
Thomas Small Well, that’s very dramatic. Did – did you – did you even speak to him? Did you?
Aimen Dean No. He was just shocked him from behind, you know, basically.
Thomas Small Oh, my God. Did you have—? Did you—? Like, what happened? You ran away?
Aimen Dean I just decided to run away, you know. And in these instances, don't be brave. Don't be a idiot. You know, just runaway.
And the second instance, you know, it was quite relatively recent. Almost—. Yeah. Two years ago, actually, in summer of—. Well, actually, no. It was September of 2016. I was going to my nephew's wedding in Bahrain. And I think that was what alerted them. Because, you see—.
Thomas Small But this is surprising that you would even go to a family wedding. I mean, you must know that if you appear in public like that, then – then – then you might be killed.
Aimen Dean Unfortunately, I became complacent. Because, you know, years and years past, and there is nothing. And then, you know, I thought, "Well, he's my nephew. It's a wedding in Bahrain." You know? "What would—? What could happen?" I mean—. So, I—. You know, I was on my way there. And I remember I booked the tickets and everything and all of that. And then, just shortly before the wedding, I received a phone call, you know, from the family in Bahrain, telling me that the authorities got in touch. "Don't come. There is a plot against you. They just uncovered it." And they realised basically that they were actually aware of my arrival six weeks in advance because of this wedding.
Thomas Small But what about your family itself? Were they under any threat? Maybe al-Qaeda would have kidnapped a sister or a – or a niece to hold her – and hold her for ransom to get at you?
Aimen Dean Oh, no. They don't do that. You know, it's not in the Arab world. They don't do that. I mean, basically, this is just a very alien concept. Maybe, like, you know, this is the drug cartels in Mexico or—.
Thomas Small Even for al-Qaeda? Al-Qaeda has – has sort of morals. Is that what you're telling me?
Aimen Dean Even for al-Qaeda or ISIS, because we come from a tribal society. And in tribes, basically, if someone, you know, offend you, you don't go and take it on the family, because then the family would go and take it on your family. And then, the clan will take it against the clan. And there is retribution. No.
Thomas Small I see.
Aimen Dean You know, basically, it's, you know—. Individual disputes are held by, you know, or even between an organisation and a individual is basically between that organisation and that individual.
Thomas Small What about ordinary Muslims? Now your is out there, they know that you were a traitor to Islam in some people's mind. They—. You – you must have had some unpleasant encounters with them.
Aimen Dean Oh. Multiple unpleasant encounters, I would say. But nonetheless, I always stand my ground, you know. You know, and I always have these incredibly funny exchanges with them.
Thomas Small Tell me about one of them.
Aimen Dean Yeah. I remember one. You know, there was this guy, basically, who—. He – he was actually my Uber driver, you know, and, you know, he was telling me, "Don't you feel basically you have betrayed the community?"
Thomas Small How did he know who you were?
Aimen Dean Because when you book Uber, you know, your name, you know, comes out, basically. And it just so happened that he was listening to Maajid Nawaz, you know, LBC Radio interview of mine.
Thomas Small I see. So, he just heard an interview with you on the radio.
Aimen Dean Yeah.
Thomas Small And here he is. Ding. [crosstalk].
Aimen Dean Yeah. Absolutely. And so, you know—
Thomas Small And who was this Uber driver? Was he some kind of crazy-eyed jihadist sympathises?
Aimen Dean Oh, no. Basically, he was just an ordinary, you know, British Pakistani. And, of course, basically, British Pakistanis have a great pride in their community. And so, basically, he said, you know, he said, you know, "Brother, don't mind me asking, but don't you feel basically that you have betrayed, you know, the community?" So, I looked at him and I said, "I did not know that al-Qaeda was a community. But now that you have alerted me that they are a community, basically, I will contact the, you know, the committee for racial equality to add them there as a persecuted minority. "
Thomas Small So, you say, "I didn't betray the Muslim community, I betrayed al-Qaeda."
Aimen Dean Exactly. So—. And then, I reminded him. I said, you know, "Brother, do you know what Imam Ali said?" And, of course, I'm Ali, the fourth caliph, live son-in-law of the prophet Muhammad, and the revered for both Muslims. You know, all Muslims, basically. Sunnis and Shia. So, he said, "What did he say?" Yeah. I said, "Well, look, he said that loyalty to the treacherous is treachery in the eyes of God. Betrayal of the treacherous is loyalty in the eyes of God. These people betrayed their nation states. They betrayed their communities. So, you just betray a bunch of traitors. That's what happened?"
Thomas Small Did he accept that? Did he – did he – did he say, "Oh, okay. Well, that makes sense?"
Aimen Dean He went on, after that, to say basically that he was always angry at people who preach to mosques and send people to die instead of them actually going to fight and die, talking about the hypocrisy of it. So, it seems to have awakened something within him.
Another example also. I was going actually to get a fever medicine for my daughter, you know, and I went to Boots, you know. And in—.
Thomas Small A pharmacy here in the UK.
Aimen Dean Yeah. And in an affluent part of London. And there, there was this Muslim woman in hijab, you know, a pharmacist, and she recognised me immediately. Of course, she follows, you know, current events. She seems like a news junkie. And, you know, she looks at me and she was so angry. She said, basically, I mean, you know, "You're a traitor. I mean, you know, you betrayed your community. You betrayed slum. And, you know, I don't want to serve you. Just go."
Thomas Small What did you say?
Aimen Dean Yeah. You know, I said, you know, "What is it that, basically, you know, upset you about what I did?" She said, "How could you live with yourself having stabbed your brothers in the back?" So, I said, "First of all, you know, there were no brothers, you know. There were people, basically, who were on a rampage throughout the Muslim world, plunging it into death and destruction. But let me ask you here a question, sister. If I see you walking down the road and I see someone coming behind you, taking out a knife and about to stab you in the back. So, if I come behind them and I stab them in the back before they stab you in the back. You see that intention wants to kill you. Mine was to save you. And you know perfectly well that what the prophet Muhammad said, that actions are judged against intentions. My intention is to save you. Theirs was to kill you. So—."
Thomas Small What did she say?
Aimen Dean She said to me, "How old is your daughter?" And, you know, she just prescribed the, you know—. Gave me basically the medicine, the Calpol, it's called basically, that I was asking for. And she asked for her age and weight, so she can tell me what exact dose I should give her.
Thomas Small So, that – that had—. Your explanation had put an end to her accusations?
Aimen Dean It calmed her down.
Thomas Small So, given this fact, that after everything you've experienced, you remain a pious Muslim, Sunni Muslim, what are you doing today to help convince your co-religionists to adopt your brand of Sunni Islam? Open-minded joyous, hopeful, and loving?
Aimen Dean There are multiple ways in how to do it, and the first one is to reinforce the belief in the nation state. I know, basically, the listener is sick of this phrase now. "Nation state." But because I've seen, you know, what a collapse of the nation state could do to a society. So, that's why I always tell people, "Look, if we believe in the nation state, then the legitimacy of those who wield and deploy violence outside of the para- parameters of the nation state are no longer legitimate. That's how we – how we delegitimise them. Once we legitimise the nation state in the mind of young Muslims, then we will have traveled a long distance in the, what I would call, counter violent extremism journey.
Thomas Small And Muslims in the West?
Aimen Dean Especially Muslims in the West.
Thomas Small Is it—? Isn't that an uphill battle? They look at the nation states here, their states, their governments, they think, "Well, these – these governments don't represent my interests. They don't represent me in the furthest extreme of this perspective. These are Christian governments in some respect."
Aimen Dean Okay.
Thomas Small "They're – they're not Muslim governments."
Aimen Dean I – I understand that and sympathise with this. But, you see, you know, we have to come back to the issue of people always having high expectations. It's almost—. Not just only, you know, with Muslims, but also with Millennials. I mean, basically, we always talk about they know those, you know, so-called snowflakes or whatever, basically. I mean, and, of course, I don't insult them. I don't call them snowflakes. I mean, I don't—. I believe basically this is an insult. But nonetheless, you know, because of the high expectations they have, because of the technological revolution that we had, they have high expectations of what their governments can do or for their societies should provide them with. And these high expectations are then hitting the walls of reality, you know. And this is why I'll always say that when we manage people's expectations, you know, this is when we can achieve a lot. Not just only with young Muslims, but also with young people, whether Muslims or not.
The second thing, there was a technique I used, which basically cured an old friend of mine of his rabid forty years old, you know, anti-American sentiments. Can you believe it? It cured him.
Thomas Small You know, I'm – I'm almost forty years, and I've – I've dabbled with anti-American sentiments myself. So – so, try it on me.
Aimen Dean Yeah. I mean, sometime, you have to be self-hating, you know, in order to – to love yourself.
Thomas Small Oh, you have no idea the depths of my self-hatred.
Aimen Dean So – so, you see, I remember a friend of mine who's so I'm American, and he's been always like this all his life. So, I managed to, you know, to really, you know, tame his anti-Americanism to a manageable level after it was out of control. I remember I met him in Turkey just last year, and he was so angry at America for everything that's happening. You know, Trump this, Trump that. You know? "They are bombing Syria. They are bombing Somalia. They're bombing – bombing Afghanistan. They are killing everyone blah blah blah blah."
So—. His name is Hamza. So, I said, "Hamza, you know, just indulge me. Mental exercise."
And he said yes.
I said, "Just close your eyes."
He closed his eyes.
I said, "Imagine a medical on the map, you know. See it as if you are seeing it from the International Space Station, just above there, and imagine it basically starting to explode, big super-volcanoes and started to sink into the ocean."
And you can see a big smile on his face when I was saying this.
"Good. Do you see it? You see the water and the ocean submerging it?"
"Yes."
"Okay. Now, imagine the world controlled by Putin and [name], and Europe cowering and can't do anything. Do you like this world?"
"No."
"And I remember he opened his eyes and he said, "Maybe America is a necessary evil."
Thomas Small And that's what you believe, Aimen, that America is a necessary evil.
Aimen Dean I believe America is necessary. But whether it's evil or good, I would say it's a – it's a necessary, and that's it. It's a necessity.
Thomas Small It's a necessity. It's—. Whether it's evil or good remains to be seen, I suppose.
Aimen Dean Indeed.
Thomas Small Well, Aimen Dean, what is the mystery behind you? Your life story is truly remarkable. You have been through more than the average person by a degree of a hundred, say.
Aimen Dean You're being very generous and kind here.
Thomas Small You've – you've almost been killed several times on many battlefields. You are a double agent inside MI6. Then, in your own words, you sunk to your lowest tab and joined the financial industry. And yet, though you live with the threat of imminent assassination from your former al-Qaeda brothers, you have this remarkable, joyous spirit. You're quick to laugh. But I don't really understand how. Aren't you traumatised by all that's happened to you? Don't you suffer cold sweats? Do you wake up screaming in the night? Where is the PTSD inside you after everything you've experienced? You know, you're – you're really an enigma to me, despite how much, you know—. To be honest, I love you. You're my brother. And – and yet, I – I'm always—.
Aimen Dean Thank you, bro..
Thomas Small I'm always thinking, "What—? Is – is this guy really okay?" [unintelligible]. I mean, do you need therapy or something?
Aimen Dean I might have PTSD. It might be of a mild form. Thank God for the fact that he made me accept everything. You know, one of the things, basically, I believe is a cure for PTSD, basically, is just to have a complete submission to the will of the cosmic universe and what's happening there.
Thomas Small Well, submission to the great plan is perhaps the best definition I can think of for the word Islam…
Aimen Dean Yes.
Thomas Small …which means "submission. And, you know, we're coming to the end of this extraordinary journey with you. And I have perhaps vocalised rather stridently people's concerns about Islam, about Muslims, especially in the current era. But you remain a Muslim. I think you've even described yourself as a Salafist, to me, still. And yet you are the most open-hearted, intelligent, fun, loving person I've ever met. So—.
Aimen Dean Oh, thank you. So kind. I can say the same about you.
Thomas Small So, how—?
Aimen Dean Even though you are, you know, a, you know, a fundamentalist, you know, Orthodox, you know, Greek Orthodox Christian.
Thomas Small I don't know how fundamentalist I am.
Aimen Dean This has been Conflicted. Six episodes on the conflict raging across the world, really, inside the heart of Islam. I'm not sure if we've done it justice. It's a very complicated story. Perhaps the listener has more questions now than answers. But, hopefully, we've gone some way towards increasing the general understanding of what is ultimately an extremely important phenomenon in our time.
All we can hope for in life is increase of understanding and increase in consciousness. And maybe this podcast has contributed to that. I certainly thank you, Aimen. And I thank you, the listener, for – for sticking with us for these six episodes of Conflicted.
This episode of Conflicted was produced by Jake Warren and Sandra Ferrari. Original music by Matt Huxley. If you want to hear more of Conflicted, make sure you search for us on Apple Podcasts or wherever you download yours.