Speakers: Anastasiia Lapatina & Jakub Parusinski
Alem: My name's Alem. I'm 25-years-old. And when I look out my window, I see my family's front yard, as well as our apple and cherry trees, a persimmon tree that my father planted for my mother decades ago. And to the right, a Ukrainian flag, greeting everybody as they come through the garden, and up our front steps.
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What does it mean to be a Ukrainian in 2022?
It means you're the citizen of a country, whose enemies claim has no right to exist.
It means you live in a battleground, where the whole world is watching you fight.
It means the consequences of victory or defeat are not just about your own self-determination.
Because the power lines that run through Ukraine are feeding out to the rest of the world.
From Message Heard and the Kyiv Independent, you're listening to Power Lines: from Ukraine to the world.
Hi everyone, this is the first episode of Power Lines. Each week, we're going to be mapping the undercurrents and global consequences of the war in Ukraine, beginning in Kyiv and following the roads out wherever they may lead. I'm Anastasiia Lapatina.
And I'm Jakub Parusinski, we both work at the Kyiv Independent. Now, for those of you who don't know, the Kyiv Independent is Ukraine's English-language media outlet, formed by journalists who walked out the Kyiv Post. I was part of the Kyiv Post a long time ago, first as a journalist, and then as CEO.
The Kyiv Post was Ukraine's first and only English language newspaper. So, for 26 years, we were the only window into Ukraine for anybody who spoke English. But we were owned by a guy who had some issues with the way we were covering the news. We criticized the government a lot and he didn't like it.
So, then one day, he fired all of us on the spot without a notice, but we were like, “well, this is the worst time for Ukraine to not have an English language outlet”, because that was a few months before the invasion, the buildup of troops was already happening.
So, we all stayed together and launched the Kyiv Independent. And Jakub, you joined us a bit later into our venture.
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So, it was actually a few days after everybody got fired, I got in touch with Olga and the leadership asking if they needed any help.
For those who don't know, Olga Rudenko is our Chief Editor at the Kyiv Independent. And just so people know how amazing she is, she's the fourth Ukrainian to ever be in the cover of Time. Like that's my boss. That's insane.
It's really impressive and cool until you catch her alone in the office, just reading the Time article with herself on the cover.
Yeah, it was a crazy time because roughly 30 of us had no idea what the hell to do. All we knew is that we were really good at our job. And our job was covering the news and writing articles and being good journalists. And that's how we got here.
Well, now that we've got all of that out of the way, in this first episode, we actually wanted to talk about Ukrainian identity, something that's extremely important to us.
So, I'm 21 and I left to study in Canada when I was 15. I went to a boarding school, then got into university there. And I remember when I was leaving Ukraine, when I was 15, I was this young, extremely idealistic kid, which partially I still am. And I really dreamed of this life in the progressive West.
So, when I was leaving, I was really excited and people would ask me, “Oh, do you plan to finish your education and come back to Ukraine?” And I would literally laugh in their faces. It was surreal to me that someone would assume that I'd want to come back.
You made it out. So, why would you?
Exactly. Because that's sort of the goal. The goal is to find a way to get the hell out and some people still believe that.
But then when COVID hit, I came to Kyiv and started kind of poking my head around and I discovered the KyivPride, our amazing NGO, that advocates for LGBTQ rights. I found the Ukrainian office of Amnesty International. I found all of these amazing nonprofits that were doing incredible human rights work.
The more I kept poking my head around, I realized that I was actually so incredibly wrong. We have an incredible community of musicians, artists, writers, our contemporary poets are incredible.
So, yeah, I've kind of fell in love with my country again. I've reinvented it for myself. That's sort of my story. And it means a lot to me because I never grew up being particularly patriotic. So, for me, it was like a completely self-made kind of patriotism.
And what about you Jakub? I'm sure you have an interesting perspective as someone who's not actually Ukrainian, but has lived here and has been around and knows the country so well.
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So, I was born in Poland, but I left at the age of five and sort of traveled all over the world. And then I came back to Poland for my studies. And I have to say, I really enjoyed a lot of the countries, but I never really quite felt at home there.
All the time, I had read lots of books and obviously Ukraine plays a big role also in Polish history, literature and things like that. And there was this kind of mythical, mysterious country, just a little bit to the east.
And so, back then, I decided to sort of head over, it was 2009 and it was an absolute crisis in Ukraine. You'd have like blackouts, the streets were not being cleaned from snow, but I really fell in love with the country.
And I think what you said about the creative scene, that's something that I'm consistently blown away by. It's just how much energy and life there is in Ukraine.
Absolutely. And potential; potential, this never-ending feeling of huge potential.
I think Ukraine does realize its potential, but it's also when you walk around Kyiv and especially if you come in the springtime, there's this magical thing when winter stops and it's basically just a couple of days, and then spring hits and life explodes everywhere.
And there's just so much art on the street and music, and people discussing ideas and politics and it's absolutely bursting.
And paradoxically, this is what Kyiv looks like right now as well, despite the possible missile strikes, and despite the constant air-raid sirens. It's full of life.
So, that was what really struck me and why I ended up staying. So, I was supposed to come to Ukraine for just a year. I had met a fantastic Ukrainian woman who I ended up marrying, but it's exactly what you're saying; this was the first place where I felt like I could be fully at home.
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[Music playing 00:06:59]
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Anastasiia:
So, you are the kind of the generation that never experienced either the Soviet Union or the immediate sort of post-Soviet chaos years, right?
Yeah.
Because like the beginning of the nineties, like that was a complete, I don't know if we're supposed to shit show, but it was a shit show with massive corruption. The country was falling apart. Like I think the turn of the century and then the Orange Revolution.
I was there for that. I was born in 2001, so I have a whole photo album of my parents in orange clothing, standing on Maidan and holding me in orange baby clothing in their hands.
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During Euromaidan, my family was really active. I have a lot of memories from there. Like me drawing posters that said “F Putin.” I must have been 12 for 13 when it happened.
For those who don't know, the Orange Revolution was a popular uprising against a corrupt and rigged election in which the pro-Russian candidate, Viktor Yanukovych tried to reserve power from the pro-Western candidate, Viktor Yushchenko.
In a somewhat surprising twist of events, less than a decade later, Ukraine experienced the either Euromaidan or Revolution of Dignity in which people rose up in protest against Viktor Yanukovych’s decision to abandon an association agreement with the European Union, and instead, take a pro-Russian course for the country.
I'm very short in general, but when I was a baby, even more so. So, I remember my dad like literally pulling me up so–
That happens to a lot of people. Yeah.
Being shorter as babies.
Thank you, Jakub. Thank you. So, I remember my dad literally like pulling me up so I could put a poster on the Kyiv City Council walls. And I remember seeing like provocateurs, Titushky, we call them Titushky. I remember seeing those for the first time, the whole thing.
Oh My God. So, that was on Kreschatyk, the City Council that got kind of occupied very early on. So, I was in the building, on the first floor like-
When Titushky attacked them, I was walking with my parents right near it.
Oh my God. So, like basically, we were hanging out in the same parts of sort of that. Essentially, but how old were you?
Well, I was, yeah, significantly older. I was 30.
Okay.
Yeah. When Euromaidan started and it was kind of a crazy experience. Although, to be honest, I always thought that it was about Europe, but at the end of the day, it was Maidan for me. Like that was–
Which is why we also call it Revolution of Dignity. Because dignity is what it was actually about.
Absolutely. It was incredible to sort of be part of that. Very addictive too. When you were on Maidan, you were in the center of the world in some ways.
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It was extremely addictive. And I can say that as someone who went through that as a 13-year-old, but I remember being in school and when the smoke was rising because protestors were burning tires so snipers couldn't see them, I could see that out of my school window.
And there were days when the smoke got so bad that I couldn't go to school. All of those experiences were insane. And eight years later, me and my friends who also went through the same experience back then, we are reflecting on the fact that for us, it's normal because that's just the reality.
But actually, none of this is normal. No kid is supposed to be reading the news about people shooting other people in their country. No kid should be going with her mom to St Michael's Cathedral because your mom was dropping off medicine for civilians who were shot and injured. None of that is normal.
And I'm not obviously like complaining or anything because I think that it really shaped me into who I am, and it shaped our entire country into what it is because the Revolution of Dignity was a hugely important moment, because it touched everybody.
I think yeah, Maidan was really the moment when the identity, at least for me shifted to the level of the people. Maidan was as bottom up, as you can imagine. It was literally people who came to protest and the police came back out.
And that's the moment when they started to take apart the sidewalks, pick up the bricks and throw them back at the police. And I think anyone who went through it, that it marks you for life, like that kind of thing.
It does. I'm just curious after everything that you've gone through in this country and considering your primarily Polish background, do you feel Ukrainian at all?
So, it's a bit of a complicated question, but I think for me, Ukrainian identity is something that is earned. It's something that you can earn, you can ascribe to these values.
I've always felt at home in Ukraine, and on many of the calls and many of the projects that I've been involved in over this sort of past decade with Ukrainians, whenever I get introduced and as a honorary Ukrainian, or the whole call is sort of in Ukrainian and all of a sudden, this Polish guy shows up and people have to explain that, “No, no, he's one of us,” it's very heartwarming. And I'm proud of that. I definitely ascribe to Ukrainian values.
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[Music playing 00:12:24]
Anastasiia: And as we've discussed that’s sort of all that matters.
Jakub: To get a broader perspective of what being from Ukraine truly means, we did a call out to friends, colleagues, and strangers to understand how they feel about their country.
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Bohdana:
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We heard from Ukrainians, living in Odessa, Lviv, Kyiv, even the U.S. who called in to tell us what being Ukrainian means to them, and how this has changed since the invasion.
And as you can imagine, the results were pretty widespread, but there were a few things that kept coming up. For example, the idea of Ukraine being a melting pot, a place for diverse cultures and people. And this came up actually in our first voice note, which is from Bohdana Neborak, a 26-year-old Cultural Manager from Kyiv.
Hi, my name is Bohdana. I'm 26, I'm Ukrainian. And for me, being Ukrainian is to be inclusive. Where different people live in Ukraine, those are people of different contexts, different cultures, religions, beliefs; but they're joined together with their desire for independence.
We want to be independent as individuals, but we also want to be independent as a society. So, for me, being Ukrainian is to see and hear others, to be inclusive. And I like that very much because I feel that it is possible in my country.
What I find really interesting with this is how postmodern in a way this definition is. So, you'd think, okay, like Ukraine has this history of fighting for freedoms. And I would say to a large extent, religious and cultural tolerance, right?
Yeah.
By the measures of the past, it was a fairly tolerant place to be. But at the same time, this identity, it comes in at a moment when the rest of the world is questioning theirs.
So, you look at people let's say of our two generations, especially on the younger side. And it starts to become more important, like what kind of values you ascribe to, what kind of change you want to see in the world? What groups you identify with. The passport and your ethnicity doesn't really play such a huge role.
But I think what Bohdana spoke about is actually very reflective of how a lot of the young Ukrainians feel about their identity, because for us, being Ukrainian means defending those liberal values that so many of our neighbors don't have and especially, Russia.
But the point is that we really are at a point where being progressive starts being a part of being Ukrainian. And it's especially important for us because we're trying to integrate with the EU and subscribing to those values is necessary to be part of the European community. So, it's a whole mix of things. I think it's really interesting.
Okay. So, our next voice note is the one I'm particularly excited about because it's from Nariman Aliev, a Crimean Tatar film director. And his perspective is particularly interesting because as I said, he is Crimean Tatar. So, he really is a part of that melting pot that we spoke about before.
His voice note was in Ukrainian. So, I'll translate it here.
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“Hi, my name is Nariman Aliev, I’m 29-years-old. Right now, I’m in Lviv. Outside my window, is a small light shining upon an empty street. It’s already curfew.
I was born and grew up in Crimea, which is already eight years under Russian occupation. My nationality is Crimean Tatar. But right now, I associate myself politically with Ukraine. The fate of me, my family, my fatherland, my nation overall, all depend on the fate of Ukraine.
Most of the answers we look for regarding our identities, we find them in our past, in the histories of our families, because the more I learnt about the stories of Ukrainians, the more I saw the commonalities with those of Crimean Tatars. There were repressions, deportations, torture, prisons, killings, denying the very existence of this people.
Being Ukrainian is not something just given, you have to find it in yourself and grow it. It’s not about ethnic belonging, it’s about culture and traditions, which grew on these lands for centuries. It’s about freedom and fighting for what is yours. That is what being Ukrainian is for me.”
I was especially touched by Nariman's answer to me, not only because I care a lot about the Crimean Tatar community, but also, because it is true that Crimean Tatars have endured way too much than any ethnic group really deserves.
So, first in the 18th century, Crimea was occupied by the Russian Empire and a bunch of Tatars fled towards the Ottoman Empire, towards the Ottomans.
And then much later in 1944, so during the Second World War on Stalin’s orders, at least 200,000 Crimean Tatars were deported from Crimea. The higher estimate is also twice that, it's something around 400,000 Crimean Tatars.
And if you take the higher estimate, it's over 90% of the total Crimean Tatar population in Crimea at the time. And really whichever estimate you take, it's a huge tragedy.
And then as if that wasn't enough, Russia came back again in 2014 when it occupied Crimea, and a bunch of Crimean Tatars had to flee again because their community has always been very, very pro-Ukrainian and very anti-Kremlin. And they've been going through immense repressions ever since.
So, a lot of them had to flee for almost security reasons. So, it's truly tragic. And seeing these parallels between the history of a very specific Ukrainian minority and Ukraine at large, the Ukrainian people at large, it was very interesting to me that he drew those parallels.
So, when we look at the history of the Russian Empire, and then later, the Soviet Union, you kind of see this trend repeat itself, like over and over again, with different nationalities.
The goal was essentially, to wipe out a people from a territory. And when you look at the Crimean Tatars, I think what makes it particularly poignant is that Crimea is such
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a unique place, and with such a unique sort of culture and history, and also significance from the Russian perspective, both strategically and historically.
And the deportation of the Crimeans was yet another case of the Russian Empire than the Soviet Union, but sort of the same political culture wiping a part of what they believe belongs to them clean.
And when you look at what is happening now in Ukraine, well, it's the same thing over again — by the way, not the first time that it's happening to Ukrainians.
We are on genocide number three here.
Yes. But the thing is, it's just the scale of it is so much bigger. This is 40 plus million people, almost a third of the population of Russia. And once again, trying to sort of completely destroy a nation.
I think that's what makes Ukraine so appealing to so many of the other nations who have suffered from Russia. That's why you have this kinship between the Poles and the Ukrainians. That's why the Georgians come and fight.
The Georgians are incredible.
Yeah. And Ukraine has become this kind of symbol for all of these nations, to paraphrase Lenin; “Russia is the prison of nations.” And Ukraine is sort of the biggest of the oppressed. So, that's the one who is finally punching back.
That actually brings us to our second theme, which is freedom.
My name's Alem. I'm 25-years-old. I think being Ukrainian is the embodiment of freedom. You can taste freedom and the dreams of a better future when you're in Ukraine, it's in the air. I think it emanates off people's skins.
When you get enough people that embody freedom in their choices and their beliefs, you really can achieve anything. And for those that want absolute control and oppression, the entirety of the Ukrainian identity is a threat.
That was so beautiful. That was Alem, and Alem and I actually worked together before because she was a reporter at the Kyiv Post. And I think what she said is exactly right.
It is true that when you walk through the streets of Kyiv, this sense of potential and freedom and a better future, it is in the air. Do you feel that at all, Jakub?
I think so. And I mean this in a positive sense; it's also an extremely desperate need for freedom. So, this isn't in a way a war, like you could imagine a war between civilized European nations, where one side fights the other and somebody gets some province.
It's a war of annihilation. And so, the response can only be a hundred percent. You cannot hold back in any way, because it's a very black and white kind of situation.
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And when we look at what's happening in the occupied territories, the level of destruction that Russia is spreading, you can see that there is no choice, but to fight.
And that's something that I think a lot of people from around the world don't really understand, is that it's so much up against the wall, but at the same time, the resistance and this kind of this need for freedom is also absolute.
The calculation is very simple. If we lose this war, there just won't be a Ukraine. So, when we talk about the delivery of weapons, when we talk about Western support, I think Jakub you’ll agree with me, a part of what we want to do here with this podcast is to get it in people's heads, that this calculation is really simple, and that we need all of the support that we can possibly get, because it's a matter of survival for us.
[Music playing 00:22:56]
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Andrea:
Next, we're going to hear from a Ukrainian-American friend of mine, Andrea Chalupa. She's a journalist, writer and the host of an amazing podcast, Gaslit Nation. She told us a bit about what it means to be part of the Ukrainian diaspora.
I want to share what it means to be a Ukrainian. I'm extremely proud of where I'm from. My mother's family is from Donbas, my father's family is from the west. And so, I've gotten a sense since I was a child of the history of Russian genocidal colonialism in Ukraine.
I was always somebody that saw myself as Ukrainian, even though around me, growing up in America, people would say, “Oh, you're from Russia. Your family's from Russia. You’re Russian.” And I always correct them and say, “No, I'm Ukrainian.”
I have always felt inspired by the Ukrainian people and Ukraine itself, stepping foot on the land, and living in Ukraine felt like a spiritual homecoming. It is a spiritual feeling that I still tap into when I need to feel connected to something greater in the world, and to really give life meaning.
The resilience and creativity and the innovation of the Ukrainian people that I've watched over the years has been extraordinarily motivational for me.
But my point is that I've learned from Ukrainians and I will always be inspired by Ukrainians. And I have no doubt that what Putin is doing now is just another dark chapter. And that ultimately, Ukraine will remain a strong and vibrant democracy, and Russia will eventually be forced to meet reality and become a democracy as well.
The second she said that, her family's from Donbas, my heart became warm because I love these stories, but especially, when they come from people who are from the east, because there is this terrible, terrible misconception among Ukrainians, but also, even more so, in the west that Ukrainians in the south and in the east are somehow less patriotic because there is more of a Russian speaking population. And there are some people who are ethnic Russians who have moved there or have been settled there.
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As if that somehow, changes the overall situation. They're like, “Oh, but you guys have pro-Russian people in the east and the south.” Okay, every country that is a democracy has people with very different views.
But at the end of the day, some of our best writers and poets came from Donbas. Some of our best people came from Donbas. And I know many people who defended Ukrainian values there, who see very clearly what Russia is doing as an Imperial conquest, that it is.
So, I think it's just extremely important to highlight voices from that part of the country, to debunk this misconception that somehow, people out there don't really care or have radically different views.
I agree. I had the same thought that it's actually great to come at it from this perspective, that includes Eastern Ukraine. So, there's this kind of myth that the west is sort of pro-European and then the east is pro-Russian.
Yes, there are some differences in the polling scores, but if you were to sort of do polls across the country today, the overwhelming majority in every single part of Ukraine is very much sort of pro-Ukrainian.
Yeah, I think it's also interesting because she's part of the diaspora and the American diaspora was more heavily based from people who were from Western Ukraine, from the Carpathian regions, from Galichina and those parts of near the Polish border.
And actually, the stories from Eastern Ukraine, which are also very important to the Ukrainian identity and to what it means in the world, that sort of gets lost. So, I think it's really great to have a broader sort of perspective.
Because I think that's the point of why Ukrainian identity is so interesting and a part of what we're doing here on the podcast is picking it apart and seeing what's inside.
Because the fact is the meaning of Ukrainian identity may be slightly different for everybody, but there will still be these overarching themes, which we've been exploring in this episode.
And that's kind of the beauty of it, that it may be something completely different for everybody. But guess what, the one thing that sort of unites all of them is that Russia has been trying to destroy this country for as long as any of us can remember.
And that's just kind of the harsh reality, regardless of whether you live in the west, in the south, in central Ukraine, it doesn't matter. All of us see what Russia is doing and we see it at face value.
Anastasiia:
[Music playing 00:27:46]
Jakub: So, tell me; how does the young generation see this? Anastasiia: Well, actually, like Mariana, an 18-year-old from Lviv.
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Hi, my name is Mariana. For me, to be Ukrainian means to feel unity with my ancestry wherever I am. It always means to build free, independent and strong Ukraine and to be ready to fight for it. As our anthem says, “Souls and bodies, we will lay down all for our freedom.”
So, here's my take as the old guy here. Bring it on.
I can't feel good about how patriotic and committed the generation of 20-year-olds are in Ukraine because they're dying at such a rate for that patriotism, that it just makes me feel horrible. Like I admire it. But it turns my insides.
People kind of idealize it and call us heroes and such, but this is actually all very terrible and none of us deserve it, I think.
I remember a month ago, you see the news constantly and you see sort of in social media, these incredibly young faces with the black ribbon or in black and white and you know straight away that the news is that they had died.
A couple of years ago, Kyiv Post had this award Top 30 under 30, mentioning important young Ukrainians who had done something spectacular with their lives.
And I remember once I was in Kyiv and they asked me to sort of host a small part of it, and running into this incredibly smart and sharp guy, Andriy Verkhoglyad, who became a major in the Ukrainian army, I think at the age of 22, it was, or 21 even.
And yeah, a couple of weeks ago, same thing. I see the photo and realized that it’s ... and there's so many of them every day and it's devastating.
It is. I keep on thinking about how am I going to explain this to my kids? How am I going to tell these stories? I want to be a parent in the future and I think a huge part of that is passing down all of these stories to them.
And I keep on thinking about how I'm going to have to find the words to explain it. Explain what I was doing, how I was feeling, but also how the entire nation was living through this completely hellish experience.
Of course, for many Ukrainians, this reality is not just something that they've experienced since February 24. It's really been for the past eight years that they have been suffering and dying because of their Ukrainian identity.
My name is Alexander Kherbet, and I'm originally from Donetsk, major city in occupied Donbas. Unfortunately, some of my friends, the close friends died for their Ukrainian beliefs.
Some of them being killed during the pro-Ukrainian rallies and pro-freedom rallies in 2014, something we will never forget about because these people were driving the Ukrainianity, if I can say this word.
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So, this was Alexander Kherbet, my really good friend and my colleague as well at the Kyiv Independent. He just recently joined us as a reporter and has done some amazing exclusives. So, you guys should definitely check him out.
He is from Donetsk, a major city in Donetsk Oblast, in the occupied territories of Donbas. He really knows the cost of this war, the war that has been going on since 2014.
So, for me, the experience of people living in Donbas and more broadly, sort of Eastern Ukraine is in many ways the most painful.
After Yevromaydan or during Yevromaydan, the Ukraine identity really rose up. A lot of people started speaking Ukrainian, identifying with Ukraine.
But that's also where that led to the bloodiest results. A lot of people were beaten, tortured, imprisoned, and murdered because of identifying with Ukraine. And it's an incredibly painful area.
[Music playing 00:32:02]
Anastasiia: Alexander:
We're going to hear a bit more from Alexander right now. And we thought that what he said was the perfect way to wrap this up.
Being an Ukrainian, speaking the Ukrainian language in major Russian speaking city in Ukraine, back before 2014 was like a freak show. It was a small group of us hanging around speaking Ukrainian.
And we were dreaming one day, everybody will speak Ukrainian. Everybody will see towards the Ukrainian future, disconnected with Russia or Soviet sentiments.
And now, I'm every single week looking to the people, talking to the people. And I see there is this dream we were dreaming about. And being Ukrainian for me right now is living a dream, really living a dream, which came true today.
[Music playing 00:33:04]
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Thanks so much for listening and everyone who sent us their voice notes. Coming up on Power Lines, each week, we’ll be talking to journalists on the ground and the world's leading experts to follow the undercurrents of the war in Ukraine.
We'll be looking at what the war means for global food security, the rise and fall of oligarchies, and what really goes on in the Russian Federal Security Service, and more.
In two weeks, we will be setting the scene of Ukraine's history for you guys, with one of the leading global historians and commentators on Eastern Europe and the war.
Don't forget to subscribe and rate Power Lines wherever you get your podcast, as it really helps others find our show.
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Power Lines is a partnership between the Kyiv Independent and Message Heard. It was produced by Bea Duncan, Harry Stott and Talia Augustidis. The executive producer is Sandra Ferrari.
[Music playing 00:34:56]