Conflicted S3 E7 - Zionism and It's Discontents

Thomas Small Hello, Aimen. Hello, hello. Hello from Greece, in fact. Here I am in sunny, Greece. Sunny, springtime Greece. Enjoying myself enormously. 

Aimen Dean I hate you. 

Thomas Small You'll like this, though, Aimen. The other day, I was at a dinner party in Athens, and I was sitting next to a splendid, old Greek gentleman who told me all about his ancestors in Alexandria. 

Aimen Dean Uh-huh. [crosstalk]. 

Thomas Small Do you remember last episode? We were talking in that last episode all about the Aswan Dam. Well, this guy's grandfather had been the Greek engineer who built the dam in Aswan that preceded Nasser's dam. And he – he was still saying—. He was saying, "And I don't know why Nasser needed to build a new dam. There was nothing wrong with my grandfather's dam. Nothing at all." 

So, the history that we talk about in Conflicted, it really is still alive, and the memories of people in the Middle East. Not that I want to say Greeks.

Aimen Dean Absolutely. 

Thomas Small Greeks or Middle Easterners. I wouldn't want to affect their sense of memories.

Aimen Dean No. No. No. They are—. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. The Greeks, they have to accept that they are Middle Eastern, because they, two thousand and three years ago, they invaded the Middle East. Anatolia, Iraq. You know, Mesopotamia, Syria, Egypt. So, they have to bear the consequences and they should be lumped with us. 

Thomas Small Man, you Middle Easterners. No wonder the conflicts never end. Your memories are far too long. 

Aimen Dean Indeed.

Thomas Small Today's episode, it's the big one. I mean, or is it the big one? Tell me. Why do you think I've been so scared, really, now for three years, so scared, to talk about Israel on this podcast? 

Aimen Dean Because, literally, it is, you know, a minefield. Wherever you step, you know, it might blow in your face, you know. So, I always avoided this conversation with so many of my friends. And, you know—. And whenever people keep telling me, "Oh, you are not sympathetic to the plight of the Palestinians. Have you ever been occupied?" or whatever, I say, "Well, yeah. My mother's village in south Lebanon, Shebaa, you know, was occupied by the Israelis, you know, from 1978"—the year I was born, ironically—"all the way until the year 2000." 

Thomas Small Wow. That's amazing. So, growing up in Saudi Arabia …

Aimen Dean Yeah.

Thomas Small … you knew the whole time your mum's village is being occupied by – by Israelis, the enemy.

Aimen Dean Yeah. That's what I was always told. Although my mum, you know, funny enough, like, you know, I mean, we're equally angry with the Palestinians as she was with the Israelis, because she said, "They are the reason, you know, for the calamities of my home country, Lebanon." Because their presence there provoked the Israelis to invade and provoked the civil war within Lebanon. So, she had no love lost for the Palestinians either.

Thomas Small Now, Aimen, that's – that's a sort of trailer for some episodes way down the line when you get to the Lebanese Civil War. 

Aimen Dean Indeed.

Thomas Small Today, we're talking about Israel, where it came from, how it was founded as a way of setting up those episodes that will, in a way, climax in the 1970s. So, stick with us, listener. This time. we're going back to the bronze age, going back to the Ottoman period, going back to the early twentieth century, putting all of our – our pieces together on the chess board. 

I think we must have some sort of internal crystal ball, Aimen, because our plan for this series has overlapped quite eerily with current events. We recorded an episode about Russia. And hey, presto, Russia, invades Ukraine. And now, Israel. I mean, suddenly, it's back on the front pages due to an extraordinary summit that recently took place in southern Israel, in the Negev Desert. 

On the 27th of March, the Negev Summit took place, where the foreign ministers of Israel, of course, but also the UAE, Bahrain, Egypt, Morocco, and the United States, met to discuss a range of bilateral and regional issues. 

Aimen, what was the focus of the summit? If I had to guess, I'd say Iran. 

Aimen Dean Well, no one can escape the shadow of Iran in the region. Well, of course, because Iran, you know, operates many proxies across the region. The Houthis in Yemen, Hezbollah in Lebanon, Hamas in Gaza. You know, the Syrian militias from Iraq and elsewhere. So, of course, you know, for Israel, they are surrounded by these proxies. And, you know, the UAE and Saudi Arabia and Bahrain. So, the ramifications are very clear for everyone to see. 

So, the summit focused a lot on countermeasures against Iran's proxies and their expansion in the region, whether it is to establish a sort of a mini-NATO air defence umbrella, you know, to help these countries counter the growing threat of precision weapons that Iran use. Long range, precision weapons, offensive weapons, such as, you know, ballistic missiles and drones.

Thomas Small Now, I can understand the desire for these countries to band together to resist Iranian encroachment. But what surprised me was that a pretty powerful player was missing. Saudi Arabia wasn't there. Why wasn't Saudi Arabia represented at the summit? 

Aimen Dean Actually, Saudi Arabia was represented—unofficially, though—because the foreign minister of Bahrain was actually representing Saudi Arabia as well as Bahrain in the summit. His name is Abdullatif al-Zayani. 

Thomas Small Oh, I see. Abdullatif al-Zayani, the foreign minister of Bahrain. Saudi Arabia doesn't formally recognise Israel. So, they can't really be there personally, but they send Bahrain to speak on their behalf. And Abdullatif al-Zayani is a good spokesperson. I – I met him once. I—. Well, I met him twice.

Aimen Dean Uh-huh.

Thomas Small I interviewed him once for a …

Aimen Dean Interesting.

Thomas Small … for a film. And he – he – he's a very – a very sophisticated man, a very civilised man, and extremely articulate. Tall, handsome. He's a good – he's a good interlocutor for the Saudis with the – with these other partners. 

Aimen Dean Absolutely. And he spent the majority of his career, actually, in Saudi Arabia, because he was the secretary general of the GCC, and it is based in Riyadh. So, he is extremely familiar with the decision-makers of the Saudi foreign policy. 

Thomas Small So, Egypt was there in the Negev, at the summit. Egypt and Israel signed a peace treaty way back in 1979. And then, in 2020, a couple of years ago, the UAE, Bahrain, and Morocco also normalised relations with Israel. So, the UAE is there. Bahrain's there. But – but Jordan signed a peace agreement with Israel in 1994. Why wasn't Jordan at the Negev Summit? 

Aimen Dean Ah, well, Jordan is not happy at the moment with any of its neighbours, whether the Israelis or the Saudis, for a host of reasons. 

Thomas Small Oh, my goodness. Jordan is not happy. Jordan, you know—. As we'll see later, when we talk about the 1948 Israeli War of Independence or the first Arab-Israeli War, Jordan often has a rather tricky relations with some of its neighbours.

Aimen Dean Absolutely. You know? And so, the Jordanians were – were invited, you know. They just decided not to come. 

Thomas Small So, let's get back to the summit in Negev. You mentioned it addressed the -the problem of Iranian proxies in the region. But what about its nuclear ambitions? Did the summit address Iran's nuclear ambitions? 

Aimen Dean The summit did discuss, indeed, the Iranian nuclear ambitions and the fact that they are not far away from achieving the breakaway point, you know, of having enough fuel for a nuclear device or even two. The other things also they discussed is the fact that with this alliance or semi-alliance between Iran and Russia and the fact that the Russians are very nervous about, like, what's happening in the region, you know, with Iran, this could impact the food security of the region. And with food security, there could be unrest, especially in places like Egypt, which is exactly why, after the summit, the Saudi government deposited $5 billion in the Egyptian Central Bank to help Egypt deal with the rising food prices and fuel prices they have to import. Not to mention favourable terms in terms of oil and all of that. 

So, actually the summit is looking at Iran, looking at its proxies, and looking at the ramifications of the Ukrainian War on the region. 

Thomas Small Yes. And – and those ramifications are massive, especially in food security. But the – the summit was not only interested in food. It was also interested in water. And in fact, they've decided to make the Negev Summit an annual thing to be held in a different desert city every year. They've chosen a desert city to shine a spotlight on this main issue: water. 

Aimen Dean The Israelis are one of the most advanced nations on earth when it comes to water treatment, water management, and water efficiency. 

Thomas Small The Saudi's water insecurity was recently highlighted when the Houthis attacked a desalination plant on the west coast of Saudi Arabia. 

It's funny, Aimen. You – you warned us three years ago that the Yemen War and the – the Houthi threat from the Saudi point of view was all about water, all about those desalination plants. And still, boom. It's happening. 

Aimen Dean Well, of course, because that is exactly the jugular that the Houthis want to go after. Because the past several months, you know, from June last year onward, I mean, the whole Houthis have been sustaining significant human casualties inflicted upon them by the Saudi Air Force. And that is why they are lashing out, not only at the Saudis, but at the Emiratis as well. I mean, Abu Dhabi was attacked. 

So, this is what worried, you know, the decision-makers, even in Israel, because of the long range of these weapons, the ability to fly low over the terrain or over water, over the sea, and make them difficult to detect. 

So, this is why the summit addressed, you know, this technological advance that a – a non-state actor, a third-party here, the Houthis, possess. They attacked all oil and petroleum storage facilities for the Saudis, which, of course, affected the oil prices. Already, the world is suffering from it. 

Thomas Small And the Saudi response was totally unforgiving. I mean, they pounded Yemen. They pounded, especially the port of al-Hudaydah. 

Aimen Dean Oh, yeah. The port of al-Hudaydah. The port of—. The airport of – in Sana'a. The port of Sarif. So, of course, they attacked, you know, without mercy. And that actually led to the Houthis to say, "Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. You know, three days, you know, cessation of hostilities from our side. Now, meet us halfway."

So, this is—. Now, we have some glimmer of hope finally with the Houthis deciding—you know, of course, with some instigation from Iran—to deescalate with the Saudis and have a two months ceasefire. I don't think it will last two months, but at least it might—. 

Thomas Small And how many ceasefires have there been? And they – they don't—. 

Aimen Dean [crosstalk].

Thomas Small Ceasefires mean nothing as we are – as we are finding out in Ukraine as much as we've been finding out in Yemen for years. 

Aimen Dean Exactly. Exactly.

Thomas Small Well, Saudi is not the only country that was attacked during the summit. And over the days following, a number of terrorist attacks were carried out inside Israel itself, the first wave of attacks like this for some time. On the 22nd of March, a few days before the summit, a Bedouin in the Negev stabbed and ran over people in the southern Israeli city of Beersheba. The perpetrator, the guy who carried it out, he had actually been in prison for a supporting ISIS and was released in 2018. 

On the 27th of March, the day of the summit, ISIS gunmen attacked a bus stop, killing two people and injuring twelve. And then, two days later, a couple of drive-by shootings carried out by a Palestinian militant killed five people. 

So, you know, Israel is still not going to be feeling secure. The Palestinian issue is still capable of redounding into, you know, violence upon them.

Aimen Dean Well, there is no question. This—. You know, this issue has been exploited again and again by multitude of Islamist groups, whether Shia or Sunni, as well as jihadist groups, as well as, you know, by other dictatorial regimes in the region. So, Israel is just the flavour of the month. 

Thomas Small What I found quite interesting—and even moving—was that among the dead in those attacks were two Arab Israelis. I mean, that means Palestinian Arabs who live inside Israel proper. 

Aimen Dean Yeah.

Thomas Small This community is often forgotten by people. So, two of the dead were Arab Israelis. Both were police officers, which is rather interesting and telling. Even more interestingly, one of the Arab Israeli victims was a Christian and the other was a Druze. 

A reminder, if you need one, that the patchwork of ethnicities, religions, and cultures goes far beyond anyone. Binary, if you like. I mean, certainly, it's not just Jews on the one hand and Muslims on the other. It's way more complex than that. 

Aimen Dean Definitely. Way more complex. 

Thomas Small So, Aimen, what does all this mean? Do you think things are really changing in Arab-Israeli relations? Is the Arab world growing more comfortable with Israel's existence for real? Or are the Abraham accords and all of this recent peace-making between Arabs and – and Israelis, is it – is it all just a temporary marriage of convenience? And do you think the future will be just like the past, marred by terrorism, injustice, and intractable conflict? 

Aimen Dean I've spoken to a senior policy maker in the GCC, in one of the GCC countries, which signed a peace deal with the Israelis, and what he said was illuminating. He said, "Look, Israel is a country of six million inhabitants. Yes. It is military advanced. Very powerful. But they cannot even invade Jordan. You know, they could invade Jordan, but they cannot keep it. They could invade Sinai, but they can't keep it. They can invade Syria, but they can't keep it. They are no threat to the region, because they couldn't even control Gaza. So, why would they invade Saudi Arabia? Why would they invite the Gulf? Why would they invade all the way there? They don't even have the manpower to do it.

"However, we have, on the other side of the Middle East, a regional power with eighty-seven million inhabitants, with armies upon armies of people who have been brainwashed religiously to believe that we are the enemies, we are the mortal enemies, and that they want to go all the way to the Hejaz and to Mecca and Medina to liberate it from us." 

He was talking about Iran, of course. So, he was saying, "We can't take our eye off the real enemy and focus instead on an imaginary enemy, because that imaginary enemy is"—which is, you know, well, he meant to the Israelis—"suits the narrative of a bygone era, of the time when Arab nationalism was reigning supreme."

Thomas Small I think what you've just expressed, the shift that this policymaker at least has felt is going on, I think that it really has massive implications, and it's very interesting. So, let's get back to it. And instead – instead of talking about the future, we're going to do what we always do on Conflicted and talk about the past. The past is complicated, nowhere more so than in what I'm going to try to call the Holy Land in this episode. Okay? So, at least when discussing its ancient and medieval history, I'm going to use the term "the Holy Land" as much as possible, because the words Israel and Palestine are both very loaded as we'll see for – for interesting historical reasons.

Stay with me, dear listener. There's going to be some history now. But I promise it's going to be as brief as possible and, I hope, very interesting. To get started, we've got to go way back in time, back to our favourite age, Aimen: the Bronze Age. 

Aimen Dean Sometimes, I feel like I am, you know—. How can I say? Like, I am Sherman and you are Mr. Peabody when you say "way back." 

Thomas Small Now, listen. Obviously, everything that follows is a gross oversimplification. The Holy Land is basically a highway connecting Egypt with Mesopotamia via the Levant. So, over the centuries, it witnessed a huge amount of migration and conquest. Ethnically, culturally, linguistically, it was a much more complex patchwork than any simple historical narrative can do justice to. 

With that said, we've been talking about some really old places this season. Persia, pretty old. Arabia, really old. Egypt, effing old. But the Holy Land, in some ways, it takes the cake. The city of Jericho, in what's today called the West Bank—meaning the western bank of the river Jordan, which flows north south from the Sea of Galilee to the Dead Sea—the city of Jericho is often called the oldest city in the world. Archaeologists have traced a continuous pattern of settlement there for eleven thousand years. 

Thomas Small Wow. 

Aimen Dean That means, when the first pyramid of Egypt was built four thousand and six hundred years ago, Jericho was already over six thousand old. 

Thomas Small Wow. 

Aimen Dean By 3000 BC, what would become the Holy Land was known as Canaan. This is what it's called in the Old Testament, and it's to Canaan that God tells Abraham to go. We touched on this history in episode three of this season. In the Book of Genesis, God promises the Holy Land to Abraham and his descendants. And that promise is repeated to Abraham's son, Isaac, and then to Isaac's son, Jacob. Jacob would later on wrestle with an angel and be given a new name, Israel. The sons of Israel, or so the story goes, are promised the land of Canaan for their eternal inheritance. 

Aimen, does the Quran echo this story? What does the Quran have to say about the Jews being promised the Holy Land? Anything?

Aimen Dean Well, yeah. I mean, when Moses was trying to persuade his people who escaped from Egypt, he said, "[speaks in Arabic]" You know? "You, my people, go storm that land, the Holy Land, which God promised you." 

So, it is actually enshrined in the Quran that that land was promised to Bene Israel, to the children of Israel. Although all Muslim scholars would say that promise had an expiry date, so. You know? 

Thomas Small Well, Christians throughout the ages have argued about this, too. Are the Jews still the chosen people? Is the Holy Land of Israel still theirs for eternity? Christians don't always say yes to that. 

Aimen Dean Yeah. So—. You know? So – so, from a Muslim point of view, you know, yes, it was promised. This is why even Muslims to this day, they celebrate, you know, the Passover from Egypt. You know, the exodus from Egypt. You know, the holiness, you know, of that land and the holiness of that promise stems from the holiness of those generations. The generations of, you know, Jacob, you know, Joseph, you know, Moses, Aaron, and, you know, David, Solomon. All of these people. This is where the holiness of those generations come from. 

Thomas Small The religious idea that Jews are still the sons of Israel and, therefore, still the rightful inhabitants of the Holy Land informed some of the claims made for a modern Jewish nation state there. But there's a secular version of this claim, which is that the forefathers of modern Jews lived in the Holy Land for two thousand years or so before being brutally expelled by the Romans, following which, exiled from their native land and always on the move, they suffered statelessness marginalisation, persecution, and attempted genocide. And, therefore, it is only right and natural that they should return to the Holy Land and build a nation state there all of their own. 

The political side of that argument has obviously been hotly contested. But the basic claim— that Jews are descended from the Bronze Age inhabitants of the Holy Land—is basically true. However, the same is also basically true of the Palestinians. 

Aimen Dean Indeed.

Thomas Small DNA studies have shown that Israelis and Palestinians are both fairly equally descended from those Bronze Age Holy Landers, i.e., the Canaanites and their neighbours. 

Aimen, you're a fan of DNA, fact, and fiction. What – what do you make of what I've just said?

Aimen Dean Well, I mean, it is true. I mean, the land of Canaan, as you know, it is known in Arabic, in Aramaic, Canaan—it's called Canaan in English—you know, was always inhabited by, you know, people who were always there. Even when the Jew – when the Jews conquered the Holy Land, they just went into the periphery. I mean, the east bank of – of the river Jordan became the land of Canaan there for a – for very long time. And some of the coastal areas, especially from, you know, Aker, you know, in the north of modern-day Israel, you know, all the way to Ashkelon, many of the coastal areas were still controlled by the Philistines, you know, Phoenicians, and Canaanites. 

You know, it is the heartland. It's what is known today as Judea and Samaria, which was mainly the domain of the Jewish people for a very long time.

Thomas Small So, what I guess we're saying is that, despite their different historical trajectories over the millennia and despite the incredibly fraught political conflict that has swallowed them up, Israelis and Palestinians have a lot in common genetically, ethnically, and culturally. 

Right. Okay. Let's move on with our historical summary. I can't tell the whole story of the Bible. God knows I wish I could, but I can't. So, let's just start the story from where the twelve tribes of Israel, in one way or another, have subjugated the Holy Land to their domination. There are still Canaanites, as you said, Aimen. Others—. Other peoples are there, too. But the Hebrew-speaking twelve tribes are dominant. 

They are—. This is about 1000 BC. They are eventually politically united by King David with his capital at Jerusalem. But that union doesn't last long. And after the death of David's son, King Solomon, the Davidic kingdom is split into two: the Kingdom of Israel in the north, in Samarria and the Galilee, and the Kingdom of Judah in the south, centred on Jerusalem. Now, the northern kingdom is destroyed by the Assyrian empire in 720 BC. The southern kingdom is destroyed by the Babylonian Empire 586 BC in Jerusalem, its beautiful temple built by King Solomon, is completely destroyed by order of the Babylonian king, Nebuchadnezzar. And all of the royal and priestly elites are forcibly removed to Mesopotamia. 

Until fifty years later, when our friends from episode four, the Persians overthrew the Babylonians, and the Persians shah Cyrus the Great allowed the Jews to return. And – and they were now Jews. Properly so-called Jews, i.e., people from the southern kingdom, the Kingdom of Judah. These returnees from Babylonian exile re-established political rule and rebuilt the temple in Jerusalem. This is the so-called Second Temple. 

Persian overlordship was followed by Greek overlordship, then a brief return to self-rule under the Maccabees before returning to imperial subjugation again, this time to the Romans. Roman client kings, such as King Herod, worked alongside the priestly hierarchy in Jerusalem and the Roman political governor to keep the Roman province of Judea in line. It was during this period that Jesus was born and Christianity began to flourish. 

You still with me, Aimen?

Aimen Dean Oh, absolutely. 

Thomas Small You know what happened next, right? 

Aimen Dean Oh, yeah. I know what happened next. Nothing but rebellions and rebellions and rebellions. And that caused the whole city to be destroyed, including the temple of Herod. 

Thomas Small The Jews were frequently rebelling against Roman rule, climaxing in the horrific Jewish-Roman wars. In 70 AD, the Romans sacked Jerusalem and destroyed the second temple. Then, sixty years later, they finished the job, slaughtering an unholy number of Jews and expelling most of the rest. Jews were forbidden from entering Jerusalem, which had been basically destroyed and rebuilt from scratch along Roman lines and given a new name, Aelia Capitolina. A massive temple to the Roman god Jupiter was built on the site of the old Jewish temple. 

It had been an unimaginable tragedy for the Jews. The Jewish diaspora, which was already long established and extremely strong across the inhabited world, became the bedrock of Jewish life. A number of Jews settled in the vicinity of the Sea of Galilee, where they remained until the modern period. But Jerusalem was a Roman city. And to stress the fact, the emperor changed the name of the province from Judea to—wait for it—Palestine, named after a people—you mentioned them before—called the Philistines, who had been archenemies of the Jews …

Aimen Dean Yeah.

Thomas Small … a thousand years before. 

Aimen Dean I think Emperor Hadrian more or less wanted to humiliate the Jews as much as possible, you know, by naming the province, you know, Palestina, after the Philistines, who were the enemies of the Jews, especially, like, you know, with the story in the Bible about the temple of Gaza and Samson, you know. And this is why the Jews, to this day, whenever they mentioned the name Hadrian, they say, "May his bones be crushed." 

Thomas Small Well, what's a tragedy for the Jews, though, became a triumph for the Christians. In fact, at the time, the distinction between Jews and Christians wasn't nearly as large as it would become. One of the effects of the Roman turn against the Jews was that it stimulated conversion to Christianity. Christians did, after all, worship the same God. So, over the next couple of centuries, the Holy Land became significantly Christianised, and many, many people who today call themselves Palestinians were, in fact, native Holy Landers, who converted to Christianity and would later on convert to Islam. 

In the fourth century, the Roman emperor, Constantine the Great, himself converted. And in time, he converted the whole empire to Christianity. He and his mother Helena began a huge building works program in Jerusalem, erecting enormous, lavishly-endowed churches across the city at sites associated with the life of Christ. And the temple to Jupiter, up where the Jewish temple had been, was reconsecrated as a church. 

Now, I'll hand it over to you now, Aimen. And thank you, listener, for your patience. I hope that was a useful precis of historical events. But – but I'm going to hand it over to you now, Aimen. Because three hundred or so years later, religious newcomers rocked up to the gates of Jerusalem. 

Aimen Dean Oh, absolutely. The armies of Islam, the armies of the Rashidun Caliphate stormed—. 

Thomas Small The – the Ishmaelites. 

Aimen Dean Yeah.

Thomas Small The Ishmaelites, the Hagrites as the Christian inhabitants of the Holy Land called them.

Aimen Dean Exactly. Yeah.

Thomas Small Of course, it's the Arab Muslims. 

Aimen Dean One of the things that the caliph Omar, the successor of the Prophet Muhammad and Abu – and his companion, Abu Bakr, when he went to Jerusalem and, of course, basically, like, you know, I mean, when the Muslim army surrounded Jerusalem, the patriarch of Jerusalem demanded that "I'm not going to give, you know, the keys of the city to just a mere general. Let your own, you know, top leader come." Like, you know. So, this caliph in Medina, you know, he must come and take the city. So, of course, like, you know, he made the journey. 

And he said, you know, when he entered Jerusalem, that the God's promise that Jerusalem and the surrounding areas, the Blessed Land, the Holy Land, would remain, you know, within the Rome. The Rome of the descendants of Abraham is still being fulfilled, because we are, too, the descendants of Abraham, just from his, you know, elder son Ishmael.

So, when he entered there, he was accompanied by a Jewish rabbi who converted to Islam, you know, known in Islamic history as Ka'ab al-Ahbar. And he guided Omar, the caliph, to where the Dome—. Well, the – the rock in which, right now, the – stands the Dome of the Rock where Muhammed, it was told that he was – he ascended to heaven from that rock.

Thomas Small Yeah. So, there's a story in Islam. It's called the night journey of the Prophet Muhammed. He – he – he—. 

Aimen Dean Yes.

Thomas Small He woke in the night to be greeted by a mystical flying horse who transported him from Mecca to Jerusalem. And getting off the horse at the – at the spot of the – of the rock where the Dome of the Rock is, he ascended into heaven to the throne room of God.

Aimen Dean Yeah. And this is where the Jewish rabbi showed him where that rock is and then he took him to where the remains of the temple of Solomon were. And so, Omar decided to establish a mosque there, and he called it al Masjid al-Aqsa. 

Thomas Small The al-Aqsa Mosque as it's known in English. Yup.

Aimen Dean Exactly. So—. And this is how the transformation of what we now know as the Temple Mount, you know, where the Dome of the Rock and al-Aqsa Mosque stand, you know, came into completion from the Islamic point of view. They have taken over, you know, this four acres of land except for the western wall, which is known also as the Wailing Wall, which is the last remaining part of the temple of Herod. You know, he left it there based on the advice of Ka'ab al-Ahbar as it is still a sanctified place for Jews, even though Jews were forbidden from visiting the city or coming for many, many, many years.

In fact, Sophronius, the patriarch of Jerusalem, when he gave the city to the Muslims, he, you know, asked for terms, you know, like, you know, freedom of worship, freedom of, you know, religion for the Christians. You know. certain other terms. But one time in particular, the Muslims rejected immediately. Sophronius asked for the Muslims to bar the Jews from entering the city or living in it or dwelling in it. And, you know, Omar al-Khattab said no. You know, Jews will have as much rights as Christians and Muslims in the city. 

Thomas Small In the west, I think we often look at pictures today of the Temple Mount with the Dome of the Rock and Al-Aqsa Mosque there, and we – we sort of don't know how to interpret what we're seeing. I think even – even, you know, well-educated, well-informed Westerners will often see those Islamic monuments there and sort of think of them as – as outside invader. Like, they don't really see them as situated naturally in that space. 'Cause we imagine that's where a temple should be. We imagine, "Now, this is where Jesus lived. What does this have to do with Islam? Muhammed was living far away. What—? Why are these, you know—? Beautiful, though, they are, why are these Islamic buildings on the Temple Mount?" 

But – but you were telling me the other day that – that it's, you know – that in the fourteen hundred years or so since Jerusalem became an Islamic city, it has really featured heavily in – in Islamic – the Islamic imagination, Islamic theology, especially in terms of the end of time.

Aimen Dean Yes. I mean, for, you know, for Muslims Jerusalem is the place where the souls, you know, near the end of time or basically when the Day of Judgment happened, the souls of people who are there, here on earth, will ascend to heaven from where [crosstalk]. 

Thomas Small From Jerusalem?

Aimen Dean Not only from Jerusalem. From – from, actually, a cave beneath the rock, you know, where the dome is. So, I visited there in 2018. It was a deeply spiritual experience. And I was so happy to be there to be honest. And I remember when I went there, it was such an, you know, an overwhelming feeling of spirituality. And, you know, below the rock, which the dome stand, there is that rock, you know, which many Christians believe that it's a rock in which Jesus was sentenced by Pontius Pilate and … 

Thomas Small That's right.

Aimen Dean … his footprint is supposed to be there. So—. But if you go under the rock, there is a cave, and that cave is called [speaks in Arabic] Arwah in Arabic, which means "the cave of the souls." This place is where the souls will be gathered before they are ascended to heaven. 

It's incredible, because I remember when I was reading some Muslim scholars, it's like why Muhammed never ascended from Mecca? You know, why does he have to go all the way to Jerusalem, you know, on a winged horse all the way there, and then ascend from Jerusalem to heaven? 

It's because Jerusalem was so special, because there is that portal there, which enables, you know, people or souls or physical or – either physical or metaphysical, you know, beings to actually ascend to heaven. Because that is the place.

So, that is the—. I think this is, you know, in the Bible, the, you know, the vision of Jacob where he, you know, was in that land, you know, somewhere near Jerusalem, I think, and he saw [crosstalk]. 

Thomas Small Yeah. In Bethel. He – he saw the …

Aimen Dean Yeah.

Thomas Small … a vision of angels ascending and descending upon a ladder. 

Aimen Dean Yeah. 

Thomas Small Yeah.

Aimen Dean I mean, it could be. Yeah. 

Thomas Small I mean, there are lots of – lots of hilltops in that – in the Holy Land from which people ascended and descended. It's a kind of—. It's a land of – of magical elevators, really. 

Aimen Dean Exactly. It could be. You know, why not? But this is the holiness of, you know, Jerusalem in terms of, you know, the imagination of Muslims. And that is why it is actually so intertwined, you know, into the prophetic, messianic, and eschatological texts of Islam, as well as that of Christianity and Judaism.

Thomas Small Well, it's—. I mean, this is Jerusalem. It's – it's—. In a way, it's like the linchpin of the whole – of the whole universe. 

Aimen Dean Indeed.

Thomas Small Anyway, we've – we've got to move onward now towards something nearer to the present day. And it's a shame, because, you know, Aimen, think of what we're jumping over. The crusades. 

Aimen Dean Oh, yeah. 

Thomas Small Saladin. The Mamluks. They all left their mark. And in the end, like the rest of the Middle East outside Iran, the Holy Land was absorbed into the Ottoman Empire. Century after century, the Holy Land, which was part of the Ottoman province of Syria, lived its life. The Holy Land lived its life. Its inhabitants were mainly Arabic-speaking. Mainly Muslim, but also Christian. And yes, there were a fair number of Jews, too, but they were very much a minority until, in the 1880s, when Jewish migration to the Holy Land began in earnest, mainly from Europe. Among Jews who would become known as Zionists. 

So, Aimen, when you hear that word—Zionists—what does it make you think of? Because, you know, it's sort of a bad word in Arab circles, isn't it?

Aimen Dean Growing up as a child in Saudi Arabia, in that tumultuous Arab world, yes, the word "Zionism" invoked, at the time, the enemy, the other, the people who want to suck our blood. The vampires who are raping the lands of the Palestinians. You know, the Pales—. The poor Palestinians who are, you know, soul-suffering and they need our help. So, Zionism, it was equal to colonialism. It was equal to fascism. It – it was that menace that is out there, planning, more than anything else, to ruin our lives and to keep us subjugated to the West. And it is behind every conspiracy theory, every calamity, every problem that we have. If I lift a rock, I will find a Zionist under there. So, that is how Zionism was, you know, envisioned in our minds when we were young, 

Thomas Small Jewish migration continued throughout the late nineteenth century and the early decades of the twentieth century, causing more and more consternation among the Arab inhabitants of Palestine. This reached a head during the First World War, when the British arrived and [wrestled] control of the area from the collapsing Ottoman Empire. It was at this time that the infamous 1917 Balfour Declaration was made, where the British guaranteed a national homeland in Palestine to the Jewish people.

Aimen Dean Don't forget Sykes–Picot. I mean, Sykes–Picot, the famous agreement between the French and the British to divide the – what is leftover of the Ottoman Empire. I mean, they took the Levant. Really, they split it in half. The northern side, which was Syria and Lebanon, was a French zone, and the southern side, the Holy Land as well as Jordan, they call it the Transjordan, was a British Mandate. So, it was a British zone. And this is where the British started, you know, a festival to allow Jewish migration to happen, all the way until 1929, when they started to see that there is a problem. It's causing more trouble than it is worth. And this is when they reneged on their Balfour promise. 

Thomas Small That's right. The Mandate, the British Mandate, in Palestine was explicitly charged with facilitating Jewish migration to Palestine. This was obviously provocative to the Arabs of Palestine and, in fact, was – was generating, was leading to, for the first time, a Palestinian national feeling. 

Aimen Dean Well, until then, there were no Palestinians, because the province of Palestine wasn't named after a certain ethnicity or a tribe or a culture or anything. It's just an old Roman name. you know, it's like saying – calling, like, you know, well, Libyans Cyrenaica. I mean, really. I mean – I mean, the Libyans will never be – accept, like, you know, the word Cyrenaica as – as – as a formal identity. 

So, for the Arabs of Palestine, they were always called the Arabs. Until – until, really, you know, later. They were called always the Arabs of Palestine, the Arabs of Palestine. Until after 1948, then they—. You started to see the formation of, "Well, I'm a Palestinian. It means I am an inhabitant of the land that once was called Palestine." 

Thomas Small One of the problems that the Arabs of Palestine, later known as the Palestinians, had in resisting a Jewish national ambitions over the same land, was their lack of a profound and deeply-rooted national consciousness. They were regionally-based. They associated with their families, with their clans, and with their villages, or their towns, but they didn't have, to the same degree, a sense of unity. And this played out, you know, down the line during the – the Israeli War of Independence, the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, when the Jews were able to take advantage of Arab disunity and really win the field.

Aimen Dean I understand, Thomas, that the Jewish migration caused a lot of, you know, provocation. You know, among the Arab inhabitants. But the question here is—. And this question is really valid. Even many Arab quarters always voice this. Who sold the lands? Who sold their homes, farms, and lands to the newcomers, to those who came from Europe with – with cash and gold, and they sold the lands and they moved to Syria, to Lebanon, and to Jordan and to Egypt?

Thomas Small My guess is, first, wealthy Ottoman landowners and then wealthy Arab landowners in the area.

Aimen Dean Exactly. Many, many, many Arabs, you know, sold hundreds of thousands of acres of land, you know, to – and houses and, you know, farms and, you know, dwellings to Jewish migrants. 

Thomas Small And a lot of – a lot of that land was in areas that were – were under-inhabited. They were swampy or they were very arid. They – they weren't overly inhabited, because they were very difficult to live in. And the new immigrants, they did an amazing job, actually … 

Aimen Dean Yeah.

Thomas Small … transforming that land into productive land that was amenable to habitation. 

Aimen Dean Exactly. And this is where, you know, we have, you know, the character of al-Hajj Amin al-Husseini enters the picture here. 

Thomas Small Hajj Amin al-Husseini, this was a man who would eventually become the grand Mufti of Jerusalem, placed in that role by the British and – and was really the founding father of Palestinian nationalism and an infamous character, because he would spend the years of the Second World War in the Axis countries, working as a propagandist for Hitler. 

Aimen Dean Yeah. In Berlin. I mean, he was in Berlin, you know. And he escaped Berlin just before the Russian army invaded Berlin. But the reality is that al-Hajj Amin al-Husseini, the Mufti of Jerusalem, he issued a fatwa, you know, in the 1930s, saying, "Any Palestinian who sell any of his properties, any of his real estate, to any Jewish migrant is a kafir." 

I mean, he excommunicated for a legitimate transaction. This is a pure political, you know, fatwa. I mean, the idea that "I'm free to sell to whoever I want." I mean, there is nothing in Islam that says I can't sell to whoever I want. The right of property is very much enshrined there. I can sell to whoever I want. And so, you know, al-Hajj Amin al-Husseini resorted to twisting Islamic theology to say anyone who sell any piece of land or a house, you know, or a square inch to the Jews who are coming from Europe is a non-Muslim, is a kafir. He excommunicated them. 

Thomas Small So, during the 1920s and the 1930s, the phenomenon of terrorist violence arose in the Holy Land. This is something that is now sadly associated with Israel and Palestine in their conflict. On the Jewish side, paramilitary groups were founded to defend themselves from attacks by Arabs. Also to facilitate the smuggling of Jewish migrants once the British opposed migration. And they—. These paramilitary groups eventually coalesced into three groups: the Haganah, Irgun, and Lehi, of varying degrees of radicalism more or less corresponding with the three types of Zionism that were prevalent among Jews. 

I mean, it's very interesting and it's important to remember that the Jews hardly agree about anything. You get a group of Jews together, and they're all going to fight. And there's not just one form of Zionism. And Zionist themselves never really agreed on their goals. So, there was one form of Zionism, which was known as Practical Zionism, and – and its paramilitary group was the Haganah. It supported immigration and settlement as a precursor to a state. So, it's called Practical Zionism, 'cause it's like, "We want a state. We got to move people there, 'cause at once we have a lot of people there, they'll have to give us a state." Very practical. 

Then, there was something called Revisionist Zionism, and its military group was called the Irgun. This form of Zionism supported a Jewish state, which was supposed to be coterminous with the whole of ancient Israel, which, in their view, included what is now Jordan and even parts of Syria. So, this was a much more radical form of Zionism. They wanted a state to correspond with the ancient borders of Israel. 

Finally, a third kind of Zionism: Revolutionary Zionism. This is the most radical of them all, and its paramilitary group, which was the most brutal, was known as the Lehi. Like Revisionists, they also sought to bring back the whole of ancient Israel. But in addition to the state itself, they wanted to bring back the kingdom. They didn't want a secular state. They wanted all Jews everywhere to migrate to this new kingdom, with a new king of the Jews. This was very radical. 

And so, these three forms of Zionism, each had their own kind of paramilitary network, which began more and more to work together as the Zionist Project emerged.

Now, while all this is growing, the Arabs have paramilitary networks of their own. 

Aimen Dean Indeed. The Black Hand, you know. And Izz ad-Din al-Qassam, a Syrian cleric who dabbled in international jihad, actually, in 1916, 1917, when he started recruiting people from Syria, from Egypt, and raising funds to help the – the Libyan jihadist, the Libyan Mujahideen under the leadership of Omar al-Mukhtar to fight against the Italians. You know? So, he was based in Alexandria, in Egypt, in order to support the Libyan jihad, the Libyan campaign against the Italians. He then left Alexandria to go back to the Levant and go to the West Bank in order to fight against not only, you know, the Jewish paramilitary groups we're talking about, but also to fight against the British Mandate. And he fought and fought until 1935 where he was killed. And then, after that, it was al-Hajj Amin al-Husseini who took over 

Thomas Small This history reveals again that – that the – the struggle of the Arabs in Palestine at the time was really part of a larger pan-Arab struggle, a kind of—. The struggle of a growing Arab nationalism. And so, that's why a Syrian like Izz ad-Din al-Qassam is fighting for Arabs in Palestine. There wasn't, to the same extent as there is now, an idea of Syrian-ness, of Palestinian-ness, et cetera. 

Aimen Dean Exactly. And, you know, the fact that he was actually busy before the British Mandate over Transjordan, he was busy, you know, supporting the Libyans, fighting against the Italians. You know, by recruiting Syrians and Egyptians. So, you know—. And to this day, actually, you know, his memory still lives in, because Izz ad-Din al-Qassam is the name of the military wing of Hamas. 

Thomas Small Yes, indeed. The Palestine question was beginning to grow very tense, and the British wanted to get shot of it. They were sick of it. They drew up several plans to solve the problem, but none of these plans got anywhere. And the situation between Jews and Arabs worsened. It was a chaotic, very violent period. For example, between 1936 and 1939, there was something called the Arab Revolt in Palestine, where the – the Black Hand and other Arab paramilitary groups revolted against the British Mandate, attacked Jews and Jewish settlers. The British succeeded in putting it down. The Palestinian leadership was expelled. This forced the Palestinian nationalist politics, such as they were, underground, and would hobble Palestinian politics and state craft for years. So, in the 1930s, the Arabs rose up, trying to solve the problem themselves, and they were smacked down by the British.

And then, beginning in 1944, as the Second World War was nearing its end and the Zionists, who were, of course, you know, experiencing the Holocaust in Europe, thought, "It's now or never. We need to get our own state to protect ourselves from genocidal maniacs." 

The Jewish groups in – in Palestine, in 1944, started to rise up against the Mandate as well, which forced British policing to grow extremely brutal. In – in cases, the British needed to adopt even more brutal methods, which only alienated people more.

This—. The climax of this in a way where the horrific King David hotel bombings in 1946. On the 22nd of July 1946, bombings carried out by Jewish political terrorists, really, in which ninety-one people were. 

Aimen Dean Indeed. That is exactly which finally led to the British to say, "Let's wash our hand of all this mess and do what we do best: partition that country"

Thomas Small Yeah. Fed up, Britain essentially dumped the problem in the UN's lap. So, as the Second World War was ending, America got involved, because the American public's sympathy—you know, largely pious, Bible-believing Protestants—their sympathy for Jewish people in general, following the horrific revelations of the Holocaust caused the US to put pressure on the UK to sort out Palestine for good.

So, as I say, Britain turned to the UN, which drew up a plan to partition Palestine. More or less fifty-fifty, though the Israeli half was slightly larger, which was provocative given that there were fewer of them than the Arabs. But it was more or less fifty-fifty between the two groups in terms of land. 

Opening it up into the sort of growing Cold War zone, the Soviet Union supported the UN's partition plan, because it thought the plan would piss off the Arabs, who would then revolt against Britain. So, Stalin wanted to hurt Britain. So, he supported the plan and compelled his communist satellites to support it in the UN. The US government lobbied heavily for the plan, too. Several countries, in fact, agreed to support it after Washington gave them financial incentives to do so. 

President Truman himself was only so-so on the plan, but he certainly supported a Jewish state and was facing an election. There were big groups in the US lobbying in favour of Zionism for different reasons. This political player, which would go on to be called the Israeli lobby, would certainly grow over time.

So, on the 29th of November 1947, the UN votes on the partition plan. It's very interesting, Aimen. Basically, all non-Muslim countries supported it and all Muslim countries didn't. Surely, we see a clash of civilisations component here. 

Aimen Dean There is no question in my mind that, if the Muslim and Arab countries acted pragmatically at the time and decided, "Well, we're gonna lose – we're gonna lose any way. Let's cut the losses and let's, you know, vote in favour of this," things would have been very different by today. 

Thomas Small Well, as it happened, Arab antipathy to a Jewish state in the Holy Land is what led the Arabs to reject the UN partition plan and immediately oppose it on the ground with force. This doubled down several months later when, on the 14th of May 1948, the British finally withdrew from Palestine. The Mandate ended, and Zionist leaders in Israel voted to establish an independent nation state. The first prime minister of Israel, David Ben-Gurion, announced that, for the first time in two thousand years, a Jewish state had been founded in the Holy Land. And on the very same day, a coalition of Arab states invaded this new state of Israel.

Aimen Dean The 1948 War is a war in which several Arab countries—Jordan, Egypt, Iraq, even Saudi Arabia, Syria—all of these countries decided that, "No. No. No. No. No. No. We're not going to have a Jewish state on our border." And they invaded immediately. 

And, of course, seven, I think, armies, you know, invaded. And no coordination between them whatsoever. Actually, forget coordination. They were actually fighting against each other at some point. Because King Farouk of Egypt wanted Jerusalem, so he can gain more legitimacy, you know, because he was always, you know, insecure about being an Albanian ruling Egypt, and he's not a Arab even, and wanted to show, "Hey. I'm controlling the holy city, and I have a legitimacy." 

And then, you have the king of Jordan who is Abdullah II bin Al-Hussein. He, you know—. His ancestors lost just recently, just twenty-five years earlier, lost the kingdom of Hejaz, Mecca, and Medina to the House of Saud. And so, he wanted to gain Jerusalem. So, to gain legitimacy. And the two were racing towards Jerusalem rather than racing towards, you know, the Jewish units of the state of Israel. 

And the outcome? Well, apart from the incompetence, the lack of coordination, they were buying weapons from Italy and other European countries in the post-World War II, and most of these weapons were past their expiration date. So, they were soundly beaten, all of these countries, by the new-found – by newly founded the Israeli state.

Thomas Small Whereas the Jews had prepared for the war. They were much better organised. They were really fighting for their lives. At least that's what they thought. Having recently experienced the Holocaust, they thought, "Oh, my God. Here's another consortium of people who hate us for being Jews and want to destroy us. We're going to fight them off this time. We're not gonna – we're not gonna allow it to happen again."

So, they were very, very motivated to win. They had negotiated an arm sale from the Soviet via Czechoslovakia. 

If you remember, dear listener, in the – in the previous episode on Egypt, that's exactly what Nasser did seven years later when the West …

Aimen Dean Ironically

Thomas Small … when the West wouldn't sell him any weapons. So, the – the Jews had a more modern weaponry. They were better organised. And though they were the underdogs in the fight, they trounced the Arabs and punched them in the eye, really. And, you know, it was a huge knock to Arab pride.

Aimen Dean Absolutely. And, of course, that defeat led to many outcomes in the Arab world, you know. The—. King Farouk lost his popularity and, of course, lost his, you know—. Thrown just four years later. 

Thomas Small I won't say the name of the operation that overthrew King Farouk, because, no, we're not going to say any swear words in this episode.

Aimen Dean Indeed. Indeed.

Thomas Small Of course, there's the other big, big lasting problem of the 1948 War, which is the existence of Palestinian refugees. 

Aimen Dean Exactly. I mean, we have seven hundred and fifty thousand Palestinians who were expelled or left, depending on where they come from. And—.

Thomas Small Yeah. That's a contested thing. Were they expelled? Did they leave their homes, hoping to return later? Were they enticed to leave their homes by Arab politicians and commanders? It's a swirling kind of vortex of chaos there. 

Aimen Dean Exactly. But, of course, there was also the element of fear. There were several massacres, you know, from Deir Yassin and [place] and others, you know, which, you know, served as a – as a catalyst for, you know, the politics of fear. That—. The fear that there could be next. That they left in massive numbers towards, you know, Jordan, to Syria, towards Lebanon, and towards Egypt.

However, whenever, basically, people always talk about the Palestinian exodus, you know, from the Holy Land, they always forget that the Arab countries retaliated in kind and started to expel Jewish population. Jewish people who lived there for hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of years, they were expelled from Iraq, from Syria, from Jordan, from Egypt, from Yemen, from Libya, from Algeria.

You know, the expulsion was so big that the numbers are anywhere between four hundred and twenty-five thousand up to five hundred and fifty thousand. And many of them were kicked out without any compensation for the homes they lost, for the businesses they lost, and for the money and jewellery and work of art they left behind. And they were just, you know, sent to the state of Israel with only the clothes on their back.

So, seven hundred and fifty thousand, you know, Palestinians, you know, ended up being refugees due to the 1948 War. But also on the other side, you know, between four hundred and fifty to five hundred and fifty thousand Jewish people were expelled from the Arab world and were then made the refugees, and they were sent to the new established state of Israel. So, it is difficult to say that there was only one victim here.

And again, we come back to always saying here on Conflicted, we don't always talk about good guys and bad guys, you know. There are no good guys in the story again, you know, because nations are not funded, you know, unfortunately, like, you know, especially in the Middle East, through, you know, happy circumstances. And when there are no happy circumstances, there are no good guys, 

Thomas Small One further thing about the refugee issue, which is important to keep in mind, is that the Jewish refugees from Arab states following the 1948 War, when they went to Israel, resettled there, they were granted citizenship and started new lives as fully paid-up members of the state of Israel. 

One of the tragedies of the Palestinian refugee phenomenon is that the countries that they went to as refugees did not grant them citizenship, did not allow them to integrate properly into the new Arab nation states that were growing in the region. Quite the contrary. Often it suited the leaders of those states to prevent Palestinians from assimilating to maintain a network of Palestinian refugee camps, to keep the Israel-Palestinian problem alive, 'cause it suited their political interests as Arab leaders. 

Aimen Dean Absolutely. This is why I always say that, you know, no nation or a cause in modern history was used and abused like the Palestinian cause. Yet it is very interesting that, more than seventy-four years later, three generations later, the grandsons of those who fought the Israelis in 1948, were so comfortable to go to the same battlefields of the Negev, to go and have a summit with the Israelis, to discuss common mutual, you know, peace, defence shield, and cooperation. 

Thomas Small If the 1948 War was, to some extent, informed by a clash of civilisation—one; Arab, Islamic, Middle Eastern; the other Jewish, Zionist, European, to some extent—then that clash of civilisations seems to be easing. 

I mean, the 1948 War from the Arabs' perspective was a war of religion as much as, if not more than, a nationalist war over territory. To put it another way, back in 1948, for the Arabs, territory was sacred, and its violation by infidels was sufficient grounds for launching a holy war, and its conquest or reconquest was a divinely ordained necessity. 

This is how the Arabs, the Muslims at the time, were thinking about the Palestinian issue. They were thinking like traditional Muslims. 

That's no longer the case. Arab leaders now, they meet with their Israeli counterparts in Israel and they speak of a secular statecraft like any other leaders anywhere in the world. 

So, it kind of brings back what I was talking about a couple of episodes ago about this – about this sort of tension in the heart of the modern Muslim, the modern Arab person. I mean, Islam is still there. Islamic ideals are still there. Islamic history, full of glory, and an Islamic future, full of glory, is still there. But it's coexisting more easily with a less Islamic, more secular way of thinking. 

Aimen Dean I think, because we have grown up Thomas. I think. In my personal life, you know, I was a jihadist. I mean, I grew up as an Islamist, as an imam. You know, I became a jihadist. 

Thomas Small And you were animated at the time, I suppose, by a certain desire that Israel be destroyed. 

Aimen Dean Absolutely. I was cheering on Hamas suicide bombers, you know. There—. You know, I was trained in the camps in al-Qaeda there in – in Afghanistan with some of Hamas members coming to train with us. So, you know, there was no question that I, at the time, supported the Palestinian cause based on the Palestinian narrative from an Islamic point of view. The Hamas narrative. The Muslim brotherhood narrative. 

However, what happened to me? I grew up. I mean, this is exactly what happened. Mentally, you know, as well as intellectually. Like, you know, I decided that, you know, where we are heading is the path of blood, is a path of destruction, is a path that will lead no one to win but to lose. We will all be losers. And so, I ended up actually being a personification of the clash of civilisations. You know, from a jihadist, you know, to a Western, you know, spy.

So—. So—. And I ended up, actually, you know, in later years, traveling to the state of Israel, in 2018, visiting the holy sites, but also speaking in Herzliya, at a Israeli security and counter-terrorism summit. People were asking me, "Have you ever thought you will be here, you know, twenty years ago?" 

I said, "If – if you told me twenty years ago I will be here, I will say, 'Whatever you are smoking, get a refund. It's really not good.'"

Thomas Small Well, dear listener, there you have it. We've done our best in this episode to talk about the Israeli Palestine issue, to establish its historical context, the ideological clashes that underlie it, as a way of moving forward toward our ultimate goal of narrating the 1967 and 1973 Arab-Israeli wars, climax points of the Cold War in the Middle East. We could have talked for hours and hours and hours on – on the Holy Land, on the theological and mythological dimension of the Arab-Israeli crisis, on the – the plight of the Christians of the area. I mean, everyone [unintelligible]. Everyone forgets that were … 

Aimen Dean Exactly. 

Thomas Small … and are a lot of Christians there. But anyway. Christians are nice and humble. We'll just, you know, overlooked. 

Aimen Dean Oh, yes. Indeed. Indeed, Thomas. Like, you know, I feel for you, bro. I feel for you.

Thomas Small The next time, you know, having talked about Israel this time, next time we're talking about Arabs. We've got Lebanon. We've got Syria. We've got Jordan. We've got Iraq. We're going to talk about their perspective, their historical experience in the 1950s and then the sixties, where they play a role in the Cold War as they're all inclining towards re-invading Israel and getting their revenge.

This is your biweekly reminder that, if you're not doing so already, you can follow the show @MHConflicted on Twitter and Facebook. You can find that by searching "Conflicted Podcast Discussion Group" over on Facebook. 

Conflicted is a Message Heard production. This episode was produced and edited by Sandra Ferrari. Our theme music is by Matt Huxley.

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